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Old 05-08-2013, 05:31 AM   #1
imvv11
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2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

2/5, hero (900) has been playing for hour and half. Bought in for 700 and made it to 1500 without many showdowns, but then lost some and now has 900. Image is fine, is seen as winning player who plays mostly from position. Villain saw hero in some sessions before to 3barrel, 3bet squeeze with hand like K7s but saw hero made some bet/folds too.

Villain (2500) is 30-35 guy in suit, regular who plays probably 5 times a week here. Seems to have a lot of money, calls a lot even oop, cold calls 3bets if he feels he has a hand. Straddles every orbit and almost nobody else does it. Post flop when he is the aggresor, he cbets almost everytime. When he isn't, he peels at least one street if he has a pair or something like that. Maybe 20 minutes ago, he played set passively against hero on 1025. Just check/called cbet on the flop, checked to hero on the turn and then donked half pot on the river. Hero called with TP and villain showed set of dueces.
Villain also loves suited cards, he plays almost any of them for the right amount of money. I can't see him fold suited Ace or two broadway cards pf, even smaller sc.

Action right before the hand was, that Villain raised 20 from HJ over one limper, Hero from BB 3bets to 70, limper and Villain call. On 10c9c9s hero cbets 140 and both fold.

Hand:
It is played right after the hand mentioned above. 8 handed, Villain in MP raises to 20, Hero finds AsAd in BTN and raises to 70. Young guy in SB calls and Villain calls.

Flop (215): 10c8c7d. Hero cbets 160, Young guy folds and Villain raises to 450. Hero?

Is this a bet/fold here? Or should hero just check behind on the flop?
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:49 AM   #2
sauhund
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

against described villain i move in and feel good about it, a lot of draws in his range, pair+draw, combo draw, maybe even JJ, QQ he didnīt want to commit pre, AT to "shut it down". does he raise with SC type hands or limp call, would he only raise PPs instead? this is kind of important to estimate the likelyhood of him having two pair against sets.

we are doing good against this range, but we donīt like almost any turn where he could easily bluff us. jam it in.
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:59 AM   #3
jambre
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

I'd fold based on preflop action.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:28 AM   #4
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

shove, think you have decent equity against his raising range on this board

im a passive nit tho and i would check behind on this flop and reeval what he does on turn
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:48 AM   #5
Coconutbobby
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

I jam aswell, kinda easy decision since its so many turns we're not liking and i'd never fold flop vs villain with an overpair on this board ever
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:17 AM   #6
Andnoel
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

I think the situation is more marginal than it appears to be.

We can try to assign a range for the villain:

Bottom of his raising range: semi bluff hands like straight draws, flush draws

Top range: sets+, made straight

If we get it all in, the best we can have is about 65% equity or thereabout. The worst is we are almost drawing dead.

IMO, I would fold this on the flop given that we are not pot commited as yet (<1/3 of money invested). And if he ever shows a total air ball type of bluffs, I suggest that you stop playing against him and move to another table.

Last edited by Andnoel; 05-08-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:24 AM   #7
QuadJ
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

Does he normally play his draws passively? If that is the case, then folding here is possible. If you put his range here as flopped straights, sets, two pair or combo draws, then you don't have a lot of equity. If you put a lot of pair+draw, pure draws, some over pairs and an outside chance of a bluff, then shove is right. In between means making some sort of soul read and going with it. Stack sizes here mean you can't call and then fold later and there are all kinds of turn cards that might be bad for you, so shove if your going to play. My feel is that shoving against this villain is probably right, but not big +EV long term.

Also, preflop I would raise more against a villain who hates to fold pre. Stacking off here is a lot easier if you raise to $100 preflop. If I get the feeling that villain thinks I was pushing him around last hand, I might even go more.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:33 AM   #8
gsandford
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

I'd probably move in here, we have seen him play a monster hand very passively and you've also pushed him around in the same form the previous hand. I disagree with the sizing pre, if he's quite sticky pre flop with a huge stack and average hands OOP he will pay 90-110 if he's paying 70. I think his most likely hand like QJcc A9cc or J10o (JJ & A10) maybe?
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:43 AM   #9
Andnoel
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsandford View Post
I'd probably move in here, we have seen him play a monster hand very passively and you've also pushed him around in the same form the previous hand. I disagree with the sizing pre, if he's quite sticky pre flop with a huge stack and average hands OOP he will pay 90-110 if he's paying 70. I think his most likely hand is a pair + draw type of hand.
pre flop bet sizing is alright against a loose MP villain. Against this villain, you would like to have a slightly larger SPR of say, around 8-9 to maximize your profit.

Assuming SB folds, the SPR against this loose player is about 5-6, which is quite alright against a loose player when Hero has AA.

As played, the SPR is about 830/210 = 4. This is about right to extract 4 pot size bet against the loose villain. The big questions now should be,

  1. Is this the right flop for Hero to extract 4 pot size bet?
  2. Will villain ever call 4 pot size bet on this board?
  3. What happen if I pot flop, villain called? I will be committed to the pot if I barrel turn. Folding to a subsequent turn raise or calling with negative expectation is bad. What should I do to prevent this from happening?

Last edited by Andnoel; 05-08-2013 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:32 AM   #10
Octavian
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

Without some solid reads I think Villain raises to 450 is legitimate for now. I don't know. I have to be at the table and feel him out how he's been playing. I mean: on this flop if he's got Pair+draw his hand is equal with yours. If you feel you got to hit another Ace to win than I would fold before putting more money in this pot. We don't want to feel obligated to draw in order to win.

Sometimes you got to let this hand loose. I mean: AA in some situations becomes a liability if you don't play it well. At certain flop textures and against certain opponent's actions you got get rid of this hand. Especially flops that are coordinated and suited like you got in this case. Even if you fold the best hand sometimes you got to let it loose before you become committed and feel obligated to go all the way and lose your stack.

As I said, I'm not 100% from behind my computer but what I can tell you in general for cash game is this: I’m a holde’m player. I start with the best hand, try to. When you’re a holde’m player, you don’t get out and draw a lot of times. You start with the best hand, that’s the reason. For big pots, big money, I’ve got a good hand. I usually I got the best hand when I get my money in. I can’t help if I get outdraw. If my opponent has the best hand at the last card, he would have had to have the worst hand until that card. He would have to outdraw me to take the pot and the player who stays on the worst hand, with the hopes of catching a winner, is going to go broke.

That’s a good holde’m player

AK

Last edited by Octavian; 05-08-2013 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:53 PM   #11
jambre
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Talking Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octavian View Post
As I said, I'm not 100% from behind my computer but what I can tell you in general for cash game is this: Iím a holdeím player. I start with the best hand, try to. When youíre a holdeím player, you donít get out and draw a lot of times. You start with the best hand, thatís the reason. For big pots, big money, Iíve got a good hand. I usually I got the best hand when I get my money in. I canít help if I get outdraw. If my opponent has the best hand at the last card, he would have had to have the worst hand until that card. He would have to outdraw me to take the pot and the player who stays on the worst hand, with the hopes of catching a winner, is going to go broke.

Thatís a good holdeím player

AK
Spoken like a true nit

.
.
.

This flop hits his preflop r/c range so hard. He raises your c-bet to 450, giving you a decision of jam/fold pretty much. So he basically wants to get it on on the flop, hands he would do this with: all two pairs, sets, combo draws J9, and AcXc. He's fairly loose preflop so all of this is very much in his range, and you don't do particularly great vs any of it.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:54 PM   #12
JoeyyyyyG
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Fold. Far too many combos beat AA
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:50 PM   #13
tskarzyn
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot IP with AA on horrible flop

Normally i would snap fold here but... you just beat him in a 3bet pot with same cbet sizing, he is capable of playing big hands very passively, and he loves suited cards. i wouldnt be surprised to see mostly FD, FD+pair, straight draw+pair, or 99/JJ/QQ.
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