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Old 03-19-2019, 04:49 PM   #1
Berge20
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2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

I feel like this is a basic spot that I just am overthinking/reviewing, but struggling with it in my head for some reason and am interested in alternatives/thoughts. Trying to improve my 200BB+ stack play.

UTG ($1350) opens to $20, BT ($600) flats, Hero (covers) in SB makes it $105 to go with AhKd. Villain thinks, has a good look at my stack, and flats. BT folds.

UTG is a regular in the room. I don't play enough anymore to know if she's a professional, but I'd venture to say close to it. Generally tight and aggressive. We haven't played a lot together, but if she's seen me lately, I'm probably a little bit more on the loose aggressive side preflop and a slightly sticky postflop. That said, I don't think we've been at a table together in a similar situation.

Flop ($230): Ks8d5s - Hero bets $80. Villain calls. I typically (HU) will go with the 1/3 sizing with my whole range.

Turn ($390): Ks8d5s7c - Hero bets $190.

Thought process/question: Obviously on a board like this she can have some FDs that I want to charge as well as some KQs hands occasionally that I want value from. Often she will just be folding out 99-QQ, so thoughts on a check-call (with river check-call on non-spades) line?

As played....Villain raises AI for about $1165 total. Hero folds.

We don't block any flush draws or 66, but from a value perspective I'm beat (AA, 88, 77, 55, 87s) when she's raising for value. Yes, she'll have AK here *some* time I suppose, but just can't quite get enough bluffs in the range here.

If we're folding this AK, do we also fold non-spade Aces as well? Seems like that's just closer.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:06 PM   #2
Spanishmoon
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

What does: “I typically do 1/3 PSB with my sizing” mean? Does it means you don’t adjust your sizing to the situation?

You’ve priced in combos and draws on this board. So what is the point of your bet? Is it a blocker or a value bet?

I would rather continue with my opening range with varied sizing to avoid being exploited.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:21 PM   #3
Avaritia
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

Actually, the 1/3 range as a default in hu 3b pots is the cleanest way to “avoid exploits”

To answer your question about blocker/value. It is a range bet. It is the sizing he wants to bet if he chooses to cbet close to 100% of his range, which he should here

Turn is a check.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:31 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Actually, the 1/3 range as a default in hu 3b pots is the cleanest way to “avoid exploits”

To answer your question about blocker/value. It is a range bet. It is the sizing he wants to bet if he chooses to cbet close to 100% of his range, which he should here

Turn is a check.
Please explain this to me as I value your comments very highly. If Vs know he will continue his range with 1/3, they know they can play drawing hands with impunity against him with correct IO and even pot odds on the flop!

Why isn’t it better to vary c-bets almost at random between 1/3 and 3/4 than just do the same damn thing every time?

Thanks in advance for your help.
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:17 PM   #5
Avaritia
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

So this is a bit of a recent (well, getting dated nowadays, few years old at least) learning, but the 1/3 sizing largely comes from solvers. Now, “solver” and “AI” and “gto” are all the rage in what people quote to justify stuff, but 1/3 really is coming from their influence.

What they are doing is choosing 1 or 2 optimal sizing/range combos. See, a bot can actually do what you are suggesting. Having a zillion random different sizings for a zillion different hands. A human cannot. So humans “solve” for consistent range/sizing spots to make them less complex. 1/3 sizing is generally what a solver like pio chooses in hu 3bet pots if we give it certain parameters like “give me one size my entire range wants to bet”.

So assume we have exactly 2 hands here, AA and JJ. Really your JJ wants to check 100%. Your AA wants to bet pot 100%. The solver looks at your entire range and creates the optimal size for betting with all of it, which in this case is 50% pot. That’s not entirely how it works but that is the idea.

It’s ok to give her draws direct equity. Because her air (AQ for example) still folds and is still making a mistake a lot of the time (this is a weird spot bc our range is really narrow already, but you get the point. Sometimes we have ATs). If villain has JJ here for example, she’s also in a pretty weird spot. On the one hand folding a pair for 1/3 pot sucks, on the other, most of our range has her drawing to 2 outs. If we bet 3/4 here JJ snap folds and does not make a mistake when we have AK. Just one example, remember it’s really range vs range.

A little history for the kids. David Benefield (raptor) was arguably one of the best online players to have ever played. I think he played up to 2008ish and quit way way ahead. He was famous for his “raptor bet”, which was 1/3 pot, and many people considered a big leak in his game.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:00 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

Range bet has a time and place. 3betting an UTG open and seeing Kxx 2-tone I just exploitatively size up. Villain’s range is going to have a ton of PP’s, SC’s and suited broadways.

She’s less likely to semi bluff into an uncapped range betting 3/4 PSB on this board, while more likely to float light with all hands that connect with the 8/5/’s given stack depth. You get max value from her draw/float range and pressure her weak made hands into calling multiple barrels (ie: TT, 99, 98s). Those hands barely want to call one big c-bet let alone a double barrel. So you can double barrel AQ pretty effectively (if you wind up in this spot).

None of that answers the question at hand, but explains why I don’t like 1/3 PSB in this configuration. AKo I may just flat in this 3-way permutation with relative position. We keep in villain’s AQ/AJs while still having the ability to x/r bluff flops.

With that out of the way, turn is pretty gross. Villain should have all 88/77/55 for value. She’s probably got some bluffs like JT, A9, A6, A4, T9.

Either way it’s close. You’re ahead of her combo draws 3:1 - 2:1 and smoked by her trappy value hands. Given pro moniker, wetness of the board and 6x turn shove size I think you got bluffed by JT.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:32 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
So this is a bit of a recent (well, getting dated nowadays, few years old at least) learning, but the 1/3 sizing largely comes from solvers. Now, “solver” and “AI” and “gto” are all the rage in what people quote to justify stuff, but 1/3 really is coming from their influence.

What they are doing is choosing 1 or 2 optimal sizing/range combos. See, a bot can actually do what you are suggesting. Having a zillion random different sizings for a zillion different hands. A human cannot. So humans “solve” for consistent range/sizing spots to make them less complex. 1/3 sizing is generally what a solver like pio chooses in hu 3bet pots if we give it certain parameters like “give me one size my entire range wants to bet”.

So assume we have exactly 2 hands here, AA and JJ. Really your JJ wants to check 100%. Your AA wants to bet pot 100%. The solver looks at your entire range and creates the optimal size for betting with all of it, which in this case is 50% pot. That’s not entirely how it works but that is the idea.

It’s ok to give her draws direct equity. Because her air (AQ for example) still folds and is still making a mistake a lot of the time (this is a weird spot bc our range is really narrow already, but you get the point. Sometimes we have ATs). If villain has JJ here for example, she’s also in a pretty weird spot. On the one hand folding a pair for 1/3 pot sucks, on the other, most of our range has her drawing to 2 outs. If we bet 3/4 here JJ snap folds and does not make a mistake when we have AK. Just one example, remember it’s really range vs range.

A little history for the kids. David Benefield (raptor) was arguably one of the best online players to have ever played. I think he played up to 2008ish and quit way way ahead. He was famous for his “raptor bet”, which was 1/3 pot, and many people considered a big leak in his game.
Thanks! So I guess the solvers just settled on the 1/3 sizing as the mutually unexploitable Nash Equilibrium c-bet for the opening range.

Of course, this leads to some funky turn spots.

I appreciate your help and I understand it much better now!
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Old 03-20-2019, 08:51 AM   #8
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

If V is a solid player, I’d underweight the low/mid scs from their 3b calling range. IO are not high enough, and while the BTN may over call, potentially increasing her odds, she would be in the middle of two players post flop.

I’d go higher on the flop, maybe $105-110 w/o the As. Still visually small enough to entice a call from QQ/JJ, while getting extra value.

Turn – I’d lean towards checking given your range of the V in the op. I’d give 18 pairs of QQ/JJ/TT and maybe 6 for KQs/AsQs/AsJs/QsJs/JsTs, so betting would fold most of that range. I’d prefer x/c, then x/eval river.

Non-spade aces – closer, but still a fold as played this deep vs. this player.
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Old 03-20-2019, 09:23 AM   #9
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

I prefer to c/c here. I think this is a turn card that we open ourselves up to being exploited by V's combo draws. If V is as competent as you suggest then I think she is able to rip 67ss/9Tss here as a bluff, especially if she views you as competent and Laggy as suggested.
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Old 03-20-2019, 10:46 AM   #10
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

Is this a mandatory 3b?

I've been flatting AK/AQ in these spots a lot deep because we narrow our range so much pre (QQ+, AK). It's not a good thing to have our perceived range line up exactly with out real range, and have them both very narrow (with a lot of money behind). Honestly I'd rather have a hand like 89s in this spot, rep KK+ on the dry boards, and have some range protection on middle card boards.
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:14 AM   #11
Spanishmoon
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

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Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
Is this a mandatory 3b?

I've been flatting AK/AQ in these spots a lot deep because we narrow our range so much pre (QQ+, AK). It's not a good thing to have our perceived range line up exactly with out real range, and have them both very narrow (with a lot of money behind). Honestly I'd rather have a hand like 89s in this spot, rep KK+ on the dry boards, and have some range protection on middle card boards.
Very interesting. Is this approach position-dependent?
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:31 AM   #12
Berge20
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

Good discussion all around. Appreciate it.

MD, I've been trying a fold or 3bet strategy out of the small blind recently which makes this a 3bet for me all day. That said, I think if you do have a calling range here, mixing in some AKo against this type of open is worth considering. I would probably fold AQo to be honest.

You guys are all totally right on the turn in this spot. I need to be checking here all day with my one pair hands. Range wise, how do folks feel about betting only KK and non Ax spade hands (then check calling our one pair hands and Ax spades)?
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:37 AM   #13
Avaritia
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

I think your whole range can play as a check and then you split that between check/fold, check/call, check/rip

I only 3b or fold from the sb also but tight/good utg opens would probably be the one fine exception for a flat. AQo is a snap fold ofc.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:42 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

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Originally Posted by Spanishmoon View Post
Very interesting. Is this approach position-dependent?
Yes, from the blinds vs a competent EP raiser. We give a lot away by 3betting a "standard" range. We probably aren't flatting too many hands but our perceived range is going to be wide enough to represent a lot of different hands.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:13 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

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Originally Posted by Berge20 View Post
Range wise, how do folks feel about betting only KK and non Ax spade hands (then check calling our one pair hands and Ax spades)?
I'd probably check everything but KK, which I would go small, say $135, hoping they freak out and raise.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:15 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

@Avarita i dont think a 3b/fold strategy from SB is really optimal in $1/3 or $2/5. even $5/10. maybe $10/25+.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:38 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

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Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
Yes, from the blinds vs a competent EP raiser. We give a lot away by 3betting a "standard" range. We probably aren't flatting too many hands but our perceived range is going to be wide enough to represent a lot of different hands.
Thanks for your help!

So would the plan from there be to show aggression on board favoring the SB/BB range, or to exploit c-bets with x raises more frequently?
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:54 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 3bet pot 250bb deep OOP

my first thought was to check turn here, but the more I think about it, the worse idea it seems. It actually reminded me of this hand from Brad Owen.

it's really hard for you to have more than 1 pair here. other than KK (3 combos) and maybe 87s (2 combos) your only value is AA/AK. meanwhile UTG can have all the sets, higher frequency on the combo draws, and can also have AA/KK/AK. short story long, UTG should have a pretty decent range advantage here and if she's as perceptive as you say, whether you check or bet she should be bombing away since you rarely want to get it in.

I'm not sure the best way to go about figuring out the optimal way to play your range in this situation, but my intuition is that this AK might be ambivalent between c/c turn, c/f river and b/f turn.

another note since you wanted to focus on being 200BB deep, the deeper you are, the worse being OOP is and the worse AKo plays. these are both additional reasons to flat the SB in this situation since it's very tough to make a hand with AKo that you want to get an additional 180BB in with post flop.
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