Real late in my session im sitting on about 2100, i cover everyone. I'm starting to get tired now and figure i should be leaving soon. I get involed in this hand against the other big stack who is sitting on about 1700 (V1) and another player sitting on about 800 (V2). Shorter stack was playing insanely tight and relatively passive for someone who seemed to talk a lot of "i know how to play poker, you're all donkey's". So either he was having a real rough night and it affected his game or he simply wasnt that good.

V1 was very tight and had spouts of aggression but still seemed to play a more passive game - or nut hugging kind of game. (Both villains were Borgata regulars apparently). V1 perpetually looked confused which was good because it made it hard to pick up any body language sort of info. Im pretty sure their image of me is im simply running hot and sitting on a lot of chips (due to comments i over heard after V2's friend wanted to call me down out the BB w/ 97o on a 9 4 x 4 J no flush board. I led flop and turn and checked river simply because i didnt think he'd call a bet but might try to steal on the river after calling 2 streets in position)

Back to V1: He doesnt slow play much, and would seem to back off when facing aggression (raises etc). I did see him leverage some players out of pots with a few decent river bets and raises though. He seemed more inclined to calling bets rather than calling raises of his bets though, which simply tells me his hand reading needs work and he tends to put players on nut hands (obviously this last bit not 100% certain, but from observing his play - it seemed to be the case where he would fire and fold to a raise a fair amount of times).

V1 makes it 30 UTG, V2 calls i call on the button w/ J8o

Flop: ($97) Jh 9d 8d
V1 leads 75, V2 flats, I flat

Turn: ($322) Jh 9d 8d 8c
V1 leads again for 225, V2 flats, I flat with the intention of raising pretty much every river except maybe the Jd.

River ($997) Jh 9d 8d 8c 9h
V1 checks, V2 checks, I lead about 350 giving V1 enough room to shove.

The 9 to me simply gave a smaller full house to someone. The nut FH would have led river along with any quad 9s. I could have raised turn but since my image was lucky donkey, it would have been transparent since I "never bluff" in their eyes - or at least thats the image i felt i had in their eyes.

I would appreciate some comments on turn and river. As i said above, V1 seemed more likely in my eyes to call a nice VB than stick it in if i raised turn. So my only chance of getting more money is if he fires the river and commits or comes close enough to committing where a raise would pretty much lock him into calling.

I didnt raise flop for obvious reasons - i'd have to fold to pretty much any re-raise.

If i didnt bink the FH on the turn i was folding obviosly.

V1's range includes a set but by the river combinations of sets are vastly decreased along with the inclusion of my own hand meaning he's more likely to have flopped a straight (QT for 30 UTG) or something like AA-QQ played terribly.

98 - J9 > J8.. only smaller Fung How is a naked 8. The only naked 8 I see is 87, 108, Q8.... Even then not sure if they pay you off given you are the "lucky donkey" and probably have a 9 or w/e. If you cant raise the turn because of that image what makes you think you can bet the river and get paid?

I guess I don't hate calling pre if UTG raises and it folds around to you since you're both really deep and you can bluff-raise or float some flops with air and rep a wide range, but that's a big if to begin with and when V2 calls you pretty much have to dump it.

I don't see why you shouldn't raise the flop, since V1 is tight AND raised UTG so his range is capped (i.e. I would expect him to have QT or T7 here basically never) so there aren't that many hands in his range he'd 3bet the flop with aside from sets, which you have blockers to. Our hand is big enough where we're not worried about pot control, we just don't want a bad turn to kill our action.

Turn is okay I guess, while the river can still kill your action it seems kind of unlikely he'd bet/call turn and pay off a blank river with an overpair so flatting for trick value and to set up a big river valuebet on a blank might be the best line.

River a dinky valuebet seems fine, unlikely that a bigger bet ever gets paid off by worse.

Sorry - shouldve been more specific. I cant see 98 and J9 not leading river there as im pretty much never bluffing in this spot w/o at least a FH.

As i mentioned above - i felt a raise on that turn would be too transparent given V1's tendency to shy from aggression but high likelihood to call a dinkier VB on a river.

I could be wrong about this though and perhaps could have raised turn and got it in against V2 though. But i expected V2 to raise with any strong combo draw somewhere along the way.

because i'd be forced to fold to any substantial raise/shove from V1? If he is decent, he's re-raising there all day. i think he was good enough to recognize that much.

Wouldnt I have to give him credit for a flopped straight/set or at the very least better 2 pair at that point this deep?

my take was simply this: i can raise turn and get it in against V2 who should be sticking it in given that he flats twice with a player to act behind him which means he probably has a strong hand. However, i want to stack off with the player sitting on roughly 350BBs. so i went for a non-standard line in the hope he'd wake up feeling aggressive. So my line of thinking is: how do i get all of V1s money in the pot?

So maybe the question is: Is sacrificing stacking off w/ V2 worth the attempt to get V1 to stick his money in?

When you flop a non-nut flush, would you refuse to raise the flop because you're afraid of getting 3bet by a bigger flush? Obviously not since there's so many other hands to get value from.

And for the reasons I said above, he's going to 3bet this flop a very tiny percentage of the time, and when he does yeah he probably does have us beat. But otherwise we want to get value from the times he has TT or QQ+ and get as much money in before scare cards potentially kill our action.

But shouldnt he be giving up and/or folding TT+ type hands (excluding JJ) if we 4bet or flat given that i've raised w/ 2 players in front of me? This kind of board smacks my button calling range pretty heavily.

I mean - w/ QQ he's probably bet/folding flop and i stack off with V2.

I'm missing why i'm not following your logic here - help me out a bit. I didnt think i was flatting for pot control - im flatting because an overpair should never be 3betting here this deep unless he's a complete idiot, no? Once i put in this raise i either lose V1 or he check folds turn when V2 bets or i lead when checked to the times i improve to a FH. EDIT: and additionally, my hand's relative strength on this board is pretty much nothing, meaning my 3bet doesnt scoop often enough to semi-bluff top and bottom. If we were 100BBs, i'd be more inclined to raise flop.

If the turn bricks or a straight or flush card comes I've now inflated a pot where V2 _has_ to be ahead of me setting myself up for some ******** spots where im calling down V2 say.

Yeah, my bad, I was sort of assuming you had my image which is really bad, plus I play with a lot of stationy players recently so I'd never expect them to bet/fold QQ+ to me.

If you think they'll never call with worse on the flop and occasionally 3bet semi-bluff you off the best hand with a nut combo draw then I guess you kind of have to call the flop. But it also makes this a great semi-bluff spot when you just have a draw, so long term you'll want to balance by value-raising a little thinner than normal as well. Plus there is some merit of taking the pot down while you can since it's pretty likely that combined the both of them have really good equity against you.

I guess instead of pot control the term would be 'trapping with the very bottom of your trapping range' on the flop, so to speak.

Ahhh ok ok - i guess its hard because i should amend my description of V1 and say wasnt god awful and stationy and i could see him occasionally 3bet bluffing/semi-bluffing here or even if he folds and V2 shoves I'm pretty much forced to fold on the flop since he should never be 4bet shoving as a complete bluff on this board.

Definitely agree with balancing line though - i figured i would adjust and balance after this hand if a similar situation showed up again. I tend to either play these spots super standard 1st time or very non-standard and then start balancing after depending on how it goes the 1st time through. Against players better than me, this can obviously be exploited with a lot of history but most of the time you dont have thousands of hands of history with these players. I've only logged about 19 hours at this room and have only played more than 1 session against 1 or 2 players neither of which were at this table (although a few claimed to be regulars + the villain in this hand said they were borgata regulars)

i like flatting flop w/ your hand, for the reasons u mention, and since you get counterfeited @ 30% of the time by the river by overpairs, i like picking up more equity on a safe turn before i choose to play aggressively. there are lots of ugly turn cards, A, K, T, Q, 7, 9...
w/ stack sizes, flatting is standard

I definitely wouldn't play the hand in the manner described.

My first question is why don't we raise the flop? I hate flatting here. Do we really think we're behind? I'm raising for value here every single time. We are 350 BB's deep. We need to start building a pot now.

Turn. Given that we raise the flop, this street is easy. Bet something to let them continue.

Basically, I hate how this hand was played from start to finish. We get a dream board, we're playing more than 300 bb's deep, and you didn't even manage to get 100 bb's into the middle on a super wet board that they can easily have a lot worse. That is terrible imo and leaves a lot of money on the table. Were you waiting for a jjjxx board o.o? Especially given what you say is your perceived image, this is pretty close to setting money on fire in my eyes.

As mentioned above - if you raise flop to standard 225 say and V1 3bets are you flatting? Do you really think V1 is 3betting here with anything we beat ever? (or if V1 shoves, though much less likely obviously since he cant really shove w/ V2 in the pot without having a super strong hand here)

But what about if V1 folds and V2 shoves? If i make it minimum 225, pot is now 465 if he just flats meaning he's shoving every turn, which means if he is semi-bluffing at all (least likely) or has a made hand he'll simply shove. If he shoves flop im getting 1167:545 or a little over 2:1, and against his range to flat with a player to act behind is absurd to me.

if i flat with outs to improve and he has a straight - i can at least extract value the times he levels himself into calling. Right now i cant see making a move on the flop profitable since this deep im going to have to lay it down whereas for 75 i can call w/ outs + odds to improve to a FH and since i have set blockers im in such a better position. If anything, to me at least, my mistake is not raising turn maybe.

Also - im not defending my play because i think its optimal - but im defending my arguments for the sake of conversation/argument/etc.

No I am not flatting if he 3-bets. I just think there's a ton of hands we can get value from here versus hands he can come over the top with. QT isn't in the opener's range, and V2's flat seems pretty much like a draw every time.

So if V1 shoves (this is super strong given the action) I am probably folding, but then your read of v1 is probably off... if he indeed is very tight preflop and not ridic agro (you say agro but then passive), the only thing he can have is JJ and there is 1 combo of that. So his shove is so unlikely to me that I don't really think about it much. There is a ton more that he may call our raise with.

If V2 shoves, I'm calling.

Maybe you won't agree with my reasoning, but hopefully I put together at least an argument towards using a different line. I like my line better because it gets money in and I really do think you're ahead a vast majority of the time.

fold preflop. J8o makes 1 nut hand (besides quads) and you get stuck on 88x/JJx flops (granted you'll be better off on an 88x flop than a JJx flop), you'll lose tons on a 9TQr board and it's more likely someone has KJo/KJs in a raised pot than 86s (on a T97r board). Granted you'll get it in a lot vs sets.. but still have to be wary on a QT9 board.

Im confused - board was J98.

A different board obviously changes how i play J8o.

I'm not worried about preflop play when villains arent making my life post flop extra difficult - im more concerned with how to extract the most
value.

But yes, playing J8o can lead to some sticky situations post flop etc which is why i'm not going crazy with it. And i agree, i'd rather see an 88x flop vs a JJx flop.

Also did you look at stack sizes?

One question, if you aren´t raising two pair in this spot then are you raising a set?

And my god you are folding two pair to a 2nd barrel?

Your river bet is never getting shoved on by worse... You put out a call me bet just bet bigger and hope someone bluff catches.

What hands in your mind double barrel this flop + even a bricked turn into 2 players? Also if V2 raised turn if it bricks do you still think top and bottom is good?

if turn bricks maybe i'd call sometimes. im nowhere near a nut hugger but as played V1's line is strong to be betting into 2 players on a board than can easily have hit both of us moreso than himself.

Also V2's flat should be perceived as strength imo, such as a made hand & not a draw. if V2 has simply a nut flush draw w/o any straight possibilities, he should be moving in on the flop when his FE is the highest. The fact that he flats allowing me to come along tells me V2 has a strong made hand and can stand letting me draw against V1 when we're both deep stacked.

Also - what hands does V1 have OOP on this flop that call a raise/stack off? TPTK is folding. Any overpair should be folding. Unless my image was super bluffy, there's no reason to flat my raise.

Even on this board we have to worry about:

J9
QT
88
99
JJ

Which are ALL possible. The only hand we don't really have to worry about is T7.

nevermind:

you responded to 2 hands but took the board from this post: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-board-924785/

but played it with my hand.

re-read OP. I would worry about 88 because it would mean there's 5 8's in the deck as played.

So you expect villian 2 to flat with a better hand than yours? I don´t find that very likely, flatting on this board is not strength. Its a great board to float and bluff scare cards or play draws weakly, not slowplay QT or 99.

This is such a great spot for a post-flop squeeze to not do it with a made hand is just wrong, there is half of the deck that kills your action or beats your hand.

Hands that barrel: nut flush draws, overpairs, AJ, KTd, full houses, straights, combo draws, hands that pick up equity. On the turn you should definitely raise since its hard to have an 8 in your hand. This pot isnt heads up and you just got a hand that is miles ahead of QT, NFD, and overpairs. Why wait until the river for another scare card to come off???

I can't believe how many people are saying to raise this flop. Yeah if villian is a dumb fish than raising the flop is prob not bad but against the described villian raising the flop is not good. I think the line he took is fine and I might even bet a little more on the river. I still don't know why you said you bet so that villian 1 has room to jam though as you don't really want him jamming because its super super unlikely he is bluffing. Reason I might bet a little more on river is because of the missed draws you might get looked up a lot lighter than people think.

I definitely agree that i could have raised turn. I think i mentioned that in an earlier post. But i just dont see how raising the flop can make for a good situation. I'm not stacking off w/ V1 on this flop with top and bottom for 350BBs because i dont see V1 b/f with an overpair when he can just c/c on a board like this with something as vulnerable as an overpair. If he's the best hand reader in the world - he should then be shoving over my likely range which is fairly wide. If V1 shoves, i have to put him on something better than top and bottom 2 pair shouldnt i?

Also reopening the betting cant be any good this deep 3way for the same reason you mentioned its a great time to squeeze since the re-squeeze is possible and then i have to soul read whether villain is a deep enough thinker to ever re-squeeze here or if his 4bet is always for value and im simply sticking my money in behind.

forget it. keep playing J8o 350bb deep. or any amount of bb deep.