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2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River 2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River

02-16-2013 , 11:30 PM
2/5 game at local casino Fri night.

Hero: White mid 30s, been playing pretty solid, a bit card dead, so folded a lot.
Not playing a lot of hands OOP
Stack: $1500-1600+

Villain: Asian mid 30s, played fairly solid so far. Not your typical Asian over Aggro player.
Stack: Over $2k+

Hand:
2-3 limpers, Hero makes it $40 with AQ on BU, Villain calls from BB, one more caller.
Flop (~130) JT5: Villain checks, Hero bets $50 Villain calls, other player folds.
Turn (~230) 5x: Villain leads into me $120...
Hero: I found this kinda troubling tbh and given stacks I decided to keep the pot small and just call.
What does everybody think about this here? Anybody raising?

River (~470) 6 Villain checks, Hero: cuts out a bet while looking over to Villain reaction, bets $250.
Villain quickly announces RAISE, seems pretty excited, makes it $600

HERO????
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-16-2013 , 11:33 PM
All in.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-16-2013 , 11:41 PM
Fold obviously? If you want to put bets in, do it on the turn. As played, check the river.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-16-2013 , 11:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
Fold obviously? If you want to put bets in, do it on the turn. As played, check the river.
Checking back the river is absurd. Bet way more on the flop, raise turn. As played fold river.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-16-2013 , 11:58 PM
No, what on earth do you think you get value from betting the river? KhJx? He probably folds that preflop and flop a lot and certainly does not bet turn. Moreover he probably folds river often even if he has it. KQhh is possible, but you block the Qh.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
No, what on earth do you think you get value from betting the river? KhJx? He probably folds that preflop and flop a lot and certainly does not bet turn. Moreover he probably folds river often even if he has it. KQhh is possible, but you block the Qh.
Well, checking river behind seems a little too paranoid, don't you?
People call pre-flop all kinds weird hands (especially once they "already have $$$ in", so you never know...
He might have K high flush with some weird K, or KJ obviously.
Even other weird flushes are possible I think.
Also trip 5s are possible I think.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 12:24 AM
I think you played it fine, now fold. He can easily have JJ/TT here since people don't usually 3-bet them in live LLNL. It makes perfect sense to just call the flop with those hands, then lead to get full value from flushes. I also think he could take that line with a flush that was trapping, especially given turn sizing. I don't think he is raising worse OTR for value and can't see many/any bluffs in his range.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian147
Checking back the river is absurd. Bet way more on the flop, raise turn. As played fold river.
Curious, when you raise turn (how much?), if he 3-bets you - what's your plan? You shoving or what?
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 12:46 AM
Trip 5s don't call, if anything he'd jam as a bluff (though I doubt many players live would do that). There just aren't any reasonable hands he can have in his range that we beat and calls often enough. Hero's description says he's standard not out of line. Come up with a reasonable range of hands he can play that we beat and calls.

What kind of Khx does he have in his range, and how often does he even call river when we take such a strong line?
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 01:02 AM
I have to make correction to original post Flop was J95 I think, doesn't change much...
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
Trip 5s don't call, if anything he'd jam as a bluff (though I doubt many players live would do that). There just aren't any reasonable hands he can have in his range that we beat and calls often enough. Hero's description says he's standard not out of line. Come up with a reasonable range of hands he can play that we beat and calls.

What kind of Khx does he have in his range, and how often does he even call river when we take such a strong line?
Basically my thinking was - I have to try to get value from all the hands that we beat, even if they don't call river, which you really never know.

A lot of people will never fold ANY flush... a lot of people are just calling stations.
I thought Villain was solid more or less, but again it's based on very limited info, so you can never be too sure.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 01:09 AM
raise ott. If you call otr given villain's line, be prepared to be shown a boat. Easy fold otr. nh nh
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 01:20 AM
You don't HAVE to try get value if it's -EV to do so...
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
You don't HAVE to try get value if it's -EV to do so...
I understand your point, I just think you seriously underestimate the garbage people willing to call with pre-flop.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 01:41 AM
Well OP's job is to supply reads, my job is to make relevant comments based on those reads, and there are certainly lots of players live where I'd check back with this against.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 07:25 PM
Anybody else?
Should I post result?
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuG00
Anybody else?
Should I post result?
Results??? This is jj,1010,55 almost always. It may occasionally be a bluff if he's even capable of it but few villains can check raise bluff river
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 09:19 PM
River is a bet fold all day. Checking behind is too nitty as I expect khx to call and he may call with worse. Also it's soooooo hard to hit a full house and ur folding to a raise anyways. Turn can be a flat call or a raise fold turn/bet fold river if u think hell call turn with worse.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 09:24 PM
Flop bet sucks ass. Bet 80-100.

Turn whatever. River is a fold.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-17-2013 , 10:45 PM
Results:
Spoiler:
I folded.
Because I figured he's putting me on Ah most likely and "nobody in their right mind will ever fold nut flush"

His bet sizing also looked like a value raise, plus it's so extremely rare at these 2/5 games for people to c/r bluff river for 100+BB

He showed JTo
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-19-2013 , 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuG00
Results:
Spoiler:
I folded.
Because I figured he's putting me on Ah most likely and "nobody in their right mind will ever fold nut flush"

His bet sizing also looked like a value raise, plus it's so extremely rare at these 2/5 games for people to c/r bluff river for 100+BB

He showed JTo
Cute. I wonder if he knew he was bluffing =).
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-19-2013 , 11:22 PM
Good god man bet more on the flop. Turn is meh, and river is a b/f.

LOL at those advocating a check back on the river, wtf?

And yes he knew he was bluffing, he's asian, I'm pretty sure they don't even look at their cards. Seriously though take a note on him here.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-20-2013 , 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Setsy
Cute. I wonder if he knew he was bluffing =).
For sure. I corrected my original post, the flop was J95, so he just had 1 pair.
That's pretty rare in my experience to see a 100BB+ c/r bluff on the river in typical 2/5 game
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-20-2013 , 12:41 AM
Not betting the river when checked to is a travesty.

All manner of weird Kh, including the more likely KhJ, KhT,K9 are all calling a vbet. As well as god knows what else (J9, A5, JQ). I think it's far more likely that villain has a worse hand than we do when he checks the river rather than he was leading the turn to set up a river c/r. That'd be the most complicated play a 2/5 game has seen all year.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote
02-20-2013 , 02:57 AM
Despite what he showed this is most defiantly a fold. Make a mental note of this hand and move on.
2/5 300BB+ deep, Flopped NUT flush, C/R on River Quote

      
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