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2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo 2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo

10-21-2013 , 08:34 AM
2/5 NL. Been at this current table for roughly 2 hours when villain sits down. He buys in for $300, (max $500) and is wearing a hoodie, sunglasses and beats by Dre - probably about 25. - Villain starts hand with stack of roughly $365 (hero covers)

My image is a mid-20's kid playing fairly loose aggressive and winning tonight.


The Hand: Hero Holds AQ

Preflop: 2 limps to villain who opens to $20. Folds to hero who 3bets the button to $55. Folds back to villain who calls.

Flop: ($120) - K, 8, 4
Villain bets $50, hero calls

Turn: ($220) - K, 8, 4, Q
Villain checks, Hero checks

River: ($220) - K, 8, 4, QK
Villain bets $150, Hero raises to $300 (putting villain all-in for $110 more)

Thoughts on all streets appreciated. - Happy to share my rationale after commentary.
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 08:44 AM
Just call river. He's not gonna sigh call with like 99.
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 10:06 AM
Were you floating on the flop to bet the turn, and then ended up hitting the queen so you checked for showdown value? I feel like disk is right, you're not getting any more value from JJ-, so why raise? You're not getting a hand better than yours to fold.
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque
Just call river. He's not gonna sigh call with like 99.
Were you trying to show him, and everyone else, not to bluff you? That's pretty sick that over 2/3 of his stack is in the pot and he has to fold. Unless you don't think your hand is good and you're trying to rep KQ since he is committed. Personally I see him with 99-JJ, most likely JJ, and he was trying to rep KJ or KT.
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 10:34 AM
Thanks for the quick responses. To keep this moving some thoughts below:

1. - I call the flop because I'm not letting him take the pot by donk betting under half the pot. I float with the intention of betting if checked to on the turn and folding if he donks again. I think it's a strange way to play a king though, if i'm in his spot I'm checking 100% of my range on the flop so the donk bet was a bit tough to interpret.

2. - I check the turn as I now have showdown value and on the off chance he does have a king, I keep the pot manageable. At this point I do believe my hand is best (although KQ and AK or possibilities still)

3. - On the river, I'm betting for value with the thought process being that I most likely have the best hand and maybe I can get a crying call from pocket pairs as he stuck so much in already. It seems with me holding AQ and two kings on the board AK and KQ are a smaller portion of his range then pocket pairs he's trying to bluff with.

Were there major holes in my logic?
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 10:36 AM
Eh, don't really understand river raise. I think mostly better calls, worse folds. Doesnt seem like a great spot to vbet super thin or get him fold better, tbh can't tell which you're doing. There is also value to seeing his hand, esp if you suspect he may be one of the stronger players at the table.
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiscopollock
Thanks for the quick responses. To keep this moving some thoughts below:

1. - I call the flop because I'm not letting him take the pot by donk betting under half the pot. I float with the intention of betting if checked to on the turn and folding if he donks again. I think it's a strange way to play a king though, if i'm in his spot I'm checking 100% of my range on the flop so the donk bet was a bit tough to interpret.

2. - I check the turn as I now have showdown value and on the off chance he does have a king, I keep the pot manageable. At this point I do believe my hand is best (although KQ and AK or possibilities still)

3. - On the river, I'm betting for value with the thought process being that I most likely have the best hand and maybe I can get a crying call from pocket pairs as he stuck so much in already. It seems with me holding AQ and two kings on the board AK and KQ are a smaller portion of his range then pocket pairs he's trying to bluff with.

Were there major holes in my logic?
What's interesting is I can see him showing up w/ KQ here. His logic would go something like:
Donk bet flop in case you have AA or AK. Check the river since 2P is most likely good and hoping to induce a bet. Bet larger on the river to maximize missed value since he doesn't think you have a strong K.

You both took silly lines, but it'll keep him guessing in the future. I think the raise to 55 pf doesn't show a ton of strength really. He had to call 30 more into a pot of 97 (assuming you weren't in the blinds).

What'd he have/do already?
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 10:52 AM
i know where you're going with the river raise, but i think it's still too optimistic to think that he's going to call another 110. put yourself in his position. board is K84QK. you bet your TT and get raised -- are you thinking you're good? it's not like it's only another 50 -- it's another 110, and i doubt you're going to get called often enough, but you are standing a decent chance of losing that extra 110 to a king.... if he has habitually spewed off money on bad river calls with third pair, then fine.... on turn, you stand a better chance of getting some value here than waiting for the river. AJ, AT suited and 99-JJ are more likely to call here than on river once they know everything has missed. AJ and AT are bad PF calls, but you have to go for the value then, if it's there to be gotten....
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 10:54 AM
and probably the most important point is that the hands you hope to get called by -- 99-JJ -- are probably not betting the river anyway, making trip kings or bluffs a much bigger part of his range.
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 11:05 AM
I can't get behind the 3bet pre with his short stack.

I'm all for iso-ing when we know villains will call with a weaker range, but our SPR for the hand is going to be unfriendly.
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiscopollock
Thanks for the quick responses. To keep this moving some thoughts below:

1. - I call the flop because I'm not letting him take the pot by donk betting under half the pot. I float with the intention of betting if checked to on the turn and folding if he donks again. I think it's a strange way to play a king though, if i'm in his spot I'm checking 100% of my range on the flop so the donk bet was a bit tough to interpret.

2. - I check the turn as I now have showdown value and on the off chance he does have a king, I keep the pot manageable. At this point I do believe my hand is best (although KQ and AK or possibilities still)

3. - On the river, I'm betting for value with the thought process being that I most likely have the best hand and maybe I can get a crying call from pocket pairs as he stuck so much in already. It seems with me holding AQ and two kings on the board AK and KQ are a smaller portion of his range then pocket pairs he's trying to bluff with.

Were there major holes in my logic?
#1 - agree that we should never fold here.

#2 - checking is fine

#3 - i agree that you are very likely to have the best hand but villain can have a big hand (missed c/r with KQ 88 or 44 on turn) so betting just isn't a good idea because he's probably never ever calling with worse (99-JJ).
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 11:36 AM
Spoiler:
Villain calls with JJ..after tanking and saying over and over I just don't think I can fold this here.

- Wanted to post results for those interested. After reviewing the hand I think I agree about not raising the river...other than that I'm fairly happy with how I played the hand. Agree somewhat with not 3 betting due to stack sizes, but I'm a firm believer that people play worse in 3bet pots, particularly OOP - and I like to 3bet my buttons as much as possible.

- The reason I posted it is I feel Villain screwed up the hand really badly, particularly turning his hand into a bluff on the river, then forgetting he bluffed and calling off his stack, so I wanted to make sure my line makes sense against more competent opponents, and it sounds like the community is leaning more towards a call here...



One other question...how do we interpret V's donkbet on the flop. Does it give us enough information to narrow his range to pocket pairs and kings? My call was more that it was going to be hard for him to get to the river confidently on that board out of position - and I could get away if he bet again on turn.
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote
10-21-2013 , 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiscopollock
Spoiler:
Villain calls with JJ..after tanking and saying over and over I just don't think I can fold this here.

- Wanted to post results for those interested. After reviewing the hand I think I agree about not raising the river...other than that I'm fairly happy with how I played the hand. Agree somewhat with not 3 betting due to stack sizes, but I'm a firm believer that people play worse in 3bet pots, particularly OOP - and I like to 3bet my buttons as much as possible.

- The reason I posted it is I feel Villain screwed up the hand really badly, particularly turning his hand into a bluff on the river, then forgetting he bluffed and calling off his stack, so I wanted to make sure my line makes sense against more competent opponents, and it sounds like the community is leaning more towards a call here...



One other question...how do we interpret V's donkbet on the flop. Does it give us enough information to narrow his range to pocket pairs and kings? My call was more that it was going to be hard for him to get to the river confidently on that board out of position - and I could get away if he bet again on turn.
small-sized flop donk bet is usually weak although youll see live fish turn up with all kinds of hands with that type of bet (from KK to total air).

if he bets small again or checks any non-Q turn, you need to bet (with intention of betting river imo) in order to get him off his pairs.

as for the river results

Spoiler:
betting or raising on river is pretty simple in that you should be or raise if you think you're called by a worse hand more than 50% of the time that's all there is to it. i actually think he calls more often with KQ and sets than hands you beat, which is why ive advocated calling. glad it worked out for you though
2/5 3 bet pot line check with AQo Quote

      
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