V1 1.5k
V2 1k
Hero 1k

V1 TAGgish with LAG tendencies. Young good player, views hero as ultraLAG
V2 Tight on the verge of nitty, older guy, plays 5-10 occasionally. Views hero as LAG.

V1 opens from EP to 20, 2 calls, hero calls OTB with 2s3s, V2 calls from SB.

Flop As 10s 7s (~100)

Checks to hero who bets 75, V2 calls V1 folds, rest of callers fold.

Turn As10s7s8c (~250)

V2 leads 250. Hero?

With the number of callers pre, his range on the turn consists of made hands.
Suited aces that made 2 pair, A10 A7 A8, Non-nut Flushes with SCs, S1Gs, 77, 1010. He checks his nuts on the turn. I'll also include AxKs, AxQs, AxJs because he'd probably play these hands the same way. Small part of his range is ATC suited spades that felt like calling because of # of callers. Chances of this are decreased more than combinatorics say because he will fold these preflop a good portion of the time.

All 3 options are viable. Ship, Call, Fold.

Which one and WHY?

I would call the turn bet and c/c the river on any non spade, either he has a better flush then you, Ax with K Q J of spades, or some weird two pair. Hard to put him on any other hand, but honestly I think you're good here as long as the board doesn't pair and another spade doesn't fall on the river

I'm curious to see other peoples opinions though.. I think I read somewhere that's it's always almost bad to slow play a flush. Idk

Fold pre obviously, but as played shove turn. If you shove and lose, you get a nice $1k lesson on why you should fold pre with this hand even on the button.

I felt I had good reason to call here with my image and the stack sizes. There were 3 players in front of me, all of whom I had good reads on who were sitting 1k. I knew how to extract from each of them specifically and how to make each of them specifically fold.

My image is LAG but it's not spewy LAG.

2s3s is toilet paper, I know. Pretend I have 5s6s here and I elect to not 3! (because V1 will 4! a wider than normal range vs. me.)

If the two main villains in this hand view you as LAG and "Ultra-LAG" then they will be calling you down lighter, so instead of opening up for LAG game more when you see that and realize that now is the perfect time for you to tighten up and take em to value town.

Many people get way to caught up in "ahhh must maintain my TAG/LAG image" etc etc where your image really has to be liquid and always taking the shape of what best exploits the villains at hand where it seems to me you are just on autopilot lag here.

As played anyways shove.



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I'd really prefer to keep this thread away from preflop decisions. I believe the call preflop at the stack depth with my reads on the players and my image was +EV. It may have been small +EV but I'm fine with that. If I see any +EV in a spot I will take it.

Continuing on...

I suspected that jamming the turn would be best, however it is entirely possible that villain folds 2 pair here, he also may fold pair+FD. (Not sure the % that he folds those though). I can get calls from these hands on rivers if he checks a high% of the time if I don't jam the turn. He will not fold a set and he will not fold a flush. Knowing that, still a jam?

There are a lot of cards you dont want to see on the river, so I don't like calling. Never folding here. I'm jamming. Min raise looks too nutted.

I like pre better if the two callers before you are fish. Just tell me they are fish.

The 2 other callers are wearing their souls outside of their bodies.

I'm in agreement with the ship turn. I was pretty sure I misplayed it after the hand was over which is why I posted it.

So,

I thought for about 30 seconds... Here was my move and here was my logic

V1 opens from EP to 20, 2 calls, hero calls OTB with 2s3s, V2 calls from SB.

Flop As 10s 7s (~100)

Checks to hero who bets 75, V2 calls V1 folds, rest of callers fold.

Turn As10s7s8c (~250)

V2 leads 250. Hero Calls

With the range that I put him on...
Spade river, if he bets I fold. He will never bluff here. If he checks, I check behind because he's never calling with worse.
Paired river, if he bets I fold. He will only bet better flushes and boats.
Blank river, if he checks, I jam and get called by worse almost 100% because of my image.
Blank river, if he jams, I fold because he's never jamming worse.

I wasn't counting on what he actually did.


River As10s7s8cJd (~750)

V2 leads 250. Hero?

My opinion was call>jam>>>fold.

Looks like a blocker bet, also looks like a value bet. I'll get called by worse, but is it worth the option of value owning myself to jam?

If this nitty villain knows your general style of play I would interpret his call as being tight on the flop...I'm inclined to say that his hand would be a higher flush that meshes with the flop. He took a cheap line to see the turn to ensure no one card ace flush would take him down. With nothing scary on the turn he is protecting his hand with a pot sized bet....I would be calling 250 with a nut flush draw. Recommend letting this go against nitty guys...then you show your flush

Pretty straightforward stove problem. If he calls with 100% of his range, and if you are greater than 50% against his range, then shove. My gut says shove.

My stove homework didn't prepare me for this one lol.

you think folding is really an option on the turn?

I don't understand why he would make a turn bet that commits him to a shove. Does this nitty guy have no preparation for future action? From the information I've seen this guy has got the goods, especially with the juicy turn that falls into a LAG player's range.. I could fold the turn.

Folding the 73rd nuts with no chance to improve vs. a tight guy who check/call led is never going to be horrible.

I think all 3 options are fairly close decisions.

-Folding is low risk in a tough spot with a big pot
-Calling lets me play near perfect on a river because I know his tendencies and he's majority not folding if I jam. So I can see a river and get the money in or fold perfectly.
-Jamming goes for max value with highest risk.

If he was a true nit who never did this with less than a flush I would fold turn. I put 'tight on the verge of nit' in the description to try to make the distinction.

Its probably the most boring answer SunChips: but this a instafold preflop. These kind of very small suited cards hold tons of RIO and is generally a disaster to play, even on the button.

The fact that you flopped a ****ing flush and still are in doubt if you want to go with the hand or not is just another huge argument for folding this garbage preflop.

Mine two cents.

We played this garbage to make either straight or flush and we flopped a flush and made the best what our hand can make. I think we should get in. Otherwise it never makes sense though.

I know everyone is saying this, and I know you said that you don't want to focus on preflop, but this is clearly fold pre.

Whether you flop a boat, a straight, or a flush, you are still likely to get beat by someone with a better boat, better straight, or better flush. You literally cannot have the nuts. You get a miracle flop and you still don't know where you are. Which is why you fold pre, especially when you're deep.

I think Fold >> Call >> Jam.

Merits to fold: You spend only $100 to learn that you shouldn't play 23s and wait for a better spot. Calling is going to put you in an awkward spot no matter what.

Merits to call: You can still get away with 2/3 of your stack in tact if a scary card comes and he bets big on the turn or jams. Then you can finish the hand with a $350 lesson on why not to play 23s preflop. If a blank comes you can check or bet or shove, I don't know. They all seems like bad options, which is why a fold is better IMO.

All-in: With 3 to a flush on the board you are only getting called by better. Bad move.

You guys really should come to the Isle in south florida. Then you'd be making this call too. These guys play most of their range face up.
I'd almost never make this call at the Hard Rock because I'd end up in tough spots more often.

What do you do here with 5s6s? Are you folding pre?

Fold or raise when you're OTB imo.

56 at least blocks a lot of combo hands if you see a flop like you saw, something 23 doesn't (another reason to fold pre sorry for being repetitive).

If people play badly and face-up, why not play tighter and avoid marginal spots?

Why avoid marginal spots? If I can profitably play a ton of marginal +EV spots along with the fat value spots, it will boost my winrate a lot.

I get the nuts once every 40 hours or so. I'll take my EV in any spot that I can.

Good luck all in. V shows up here with lolsets and AxKs, AxQs, and sometimes 2 pair hands. Fade that river bro.

BTW, I don't want to discuss preflop beyond what I'm about to say, but in a vacuum your call pre is meh. That said, I've played cash games in South Florida and even the Jacksonville and Tampa areas and you are correct in that your average opponent is completely hopeless. If you are the shark in the water there, you will make a fortune... even with 2s3s. Srsly.

Respeck.

Results: V has 1010. Hero left 400 on the table and was feeling kinda sh*te about it.