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2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision 2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision

11-28-2017 , 01:22 PM
Table is full, everyone has at least 150-200bb. Straddled pots likely to get raised between 35-60 depending on limps and because everyone is pretty deep. Mozart (V) sat down a few orbits ago bought in for 200bb max with $500 chips and more where that came from. He looks like a grad/law student, called off a missed A-high FD with QQh, aggressive and nonchalantly 3 or 4! IP. He's quickly chipped up to 400bb. I cover the table.

OTTH

UTG straddles to $10. Hero is in UTG+1 with red JJ, and plan to limp raise, because Mozart is OTB.
MP raises to $40. He opens wide but is the fit or fold type. Mozart, SB, BB, and UTG/S flats.
I figure Mozart's range is capped, most likely suited connectors, small-mid pocket pairs, or off-suit broadways. Other players are weak and likely fold to 3! from limp UTG.
Hero raises to $160, probably too small considering number of callers and OOP against Mozart. MP, Mozart, SB, BB all complete. I say out loud, damn my bet can't get any folds. Players comment that it wasn't big enough.

Flop: Q34r ($800 pot, 2.5 SPR)
Checks to Hero. Hero checks because dryish board and OOP, fairly standard for Hero's entire range. Checks to Mozart who bets $375. I think he senses weakness, and calling will pot commit everyone but Hero in the hand.

Folds to Hero. Fold, Call or Raise? MP seems uninterested and telegraphing a fold. Seems legit.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 01:34 PM
This is a 5 way pot, continuing here is spew.
also pre is super bad

Last edited by Eholeing; 11-28-2017 at 01:46 PM.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 02:05 PM
are we supposed to know who Mozart is?

agree on the pre-being silly, play your own hand, you're asking to get exactly the kind of situation you did.

I don't understand your flop check, since similarly you're volunteering that you don't have a Q, and asking to get blown off a hand, or at best giving 4 players a free card to run you down. basically bad to worse as far as costly decisions go.

I think you're stuck folding, since your other options are what, call and check call flop turn? that or check raise all in. You could check raise all in here which many would read as AA/KK but you seem to indicate that you don't think 'mozart' has a lot of folding in him, and would probably crying call QK even if he did think you had AA.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradH
are we supposed to know who Mozart is?

agree on the pre-being silly, play your own hand, you're asking to get exactly the kind of situation you did.

I don't understand your flop check, since similarly you're volunteering that you don't have a Q, and asking to get blown off a hand, or at best giving 4 players a free card to run you down. basically bad to worse as far as costly decisions go.

I think you're stuck folding, since your other options are what, call and check call flop turn? that or check raise all in. You could check raise all in here which many would read as AA/KK but you seem to indicate that you don't think 'mozart' has a lot of folding in him, and would probably crying call QK even if he did think you had AA.
Betting doesn´t accomplish anything. Check is good.
You should not look for ways to win every hand possible just because there is a big pot. C/r allin must be the nutworst line.

I guess we c/c and fold to further action. C/f also reasonable as played.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eholeing
This is a 5 way pot, continuing here is spew.
also pre is super bad
Why is pre bad? Limp call to set mine? Raise/call 3b, fold to 4b? Limp-raise 5-6x?

I think you're too focused on the absolute value of my hand.

Mozart is a thinking player, I named him that because of his vibe. He looks very intelligent in his mannerisms, and sophisticated in the way he dresses.

I think he knows I know his range is capped with his pre-flop play. Even more so with his <half-pot bet.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 03:13 PM
Pre flop is very bad. You are too deep to limp/raise with JJ.

As played, you are in a very bad spot and all of your options suck.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BackDoorFlush
Pre flop is very bad. You are too deep to limp/raise with JJ.

As played, you are in a very bad spot and all of your options suck.
Enlighten me. What's bad about being too deep for this line? Am I just exposing my stack?

My plan was to call a 3! with this limp, and 3! myself if no one else does. I can have AA, KK, AKs, maybe AQs with this line.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reliv
Enlighten me. What's bad about being too deep for this line? Am I just exposing my stack?
Because you are going to end up playing a massively bloated pot out of position. 57% of the time an over-card hits the flop, when you have JJ. And now you have no good options.

Option 1: Check call flop; check fold turn.

Option 2: Hero call V all the way down.

Option 3: Merge your hand into a bluff and check/raise the flop, praying that the music composer folds Qx/is bluffing. He might fold Qx, but I seriously doubt that he is bluffing. You have shown a lot of strength this hand. I doubt that he is air-balling the flop.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 05:47 PM
Pre is really bad, you begged them for a lot of calls with that bet sizing

Beyond this, it's tough to evaluate preflop without knowing more about the other 900 people who were still in the hand preflop when it came back to you to complete your limp/raise plan.

In a vacuum, betting this flop 5 ways is pretty bad. Check/evaluate is a better line. If you think Mozart is weak, I'd just check/call and let him bet the turn for me. But your read seems a little misguided here - this sounds like an aggressive player, but not a bad one. The board isn't great but it is a five way board, and his aggression with air should be pretty low here.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 05:54 PM
The problem with preflop is that you designed a "plan" specifically for one player who still got a 100% range and is 5 or 6 players away to even act for the first time in the hand.

You´re messing up your whole ranges by doing something like that, it all gets a trainwreck really fast, and you´re stuck oop with no real idea what your range looks like, and how to react with certain parts of your range. You end up trying to figuere things out on the fly, which leads to infamous "tanking" I guess, but what´s the chance you really get this right on all subsequent streets oop?

You´re far better off thinking about things like these off the table. Ignore the other players for a second. Figuere out what your ranges are for certain spots.
2-5 200bb Cap Multiway Flop Decision Quote
11-28-2017 , 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BackDoorFlush
Because you are going to end up playing a massively bloated pot out of position. 57% of the time an over-card hits the flop, when you have JJ. And now you have no good options.

Option 1: Check call flop; check fold turn.

Option 2: Hero call V all the way down.

Option 3: Merge your hand into a bluff and check/raise the flop, praying that the music composer folds Qx/is bluffing. He might fold Qx, but I seriously doubt that he is bluffing. You have shown a lot of strength this hand. I doubt that he is air-balling the flop.
Okay, maybe I size a bit bigger pre-flop to 280 for a better squeeze about 5% of the time. 95% of the time raise-call or limp-call.

As played.

Ultimately, I thought check-call flop, and check-fold turn was awful, I might as well fold now. Check-fold seemed okay, but I guess I played pre-flop bad (Mistake #1) and I wanted to redeem myself by winning the pot. Mistake #2.

I went with Option 3. I figured Mozart had KQ or AQ, I could probably make him fold TPTK, if that's what he has, by repping AA/KK but I would need my whole stack to do it. I think he would call a raise in this spot, and even a min-raise would blow up SPR. So, I overbet jam 2x pot. No guts no glory.

MP folds to Mozart. He tanks. Good sign. He asks for a count. I count out my stack. He fiddles with his chips, counting his stack. Then he says aloud, "okay, I'm going to deviate from the strategy." Then mucks his hand.

I may have botched this hand but I am fist pumping in my mind.

Thank you all for the feedback. I guess I got lucky with my read/situation I put myself in.
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