The preflop raiser isnt going to call with nothing either. At least give him a chance to cbet.

Agree with what Mike is saying about donkbetting. I am guilty of not doing it enough myself to be honest so good reminder.Because especially when you flop huge in multiway pots and everybody going to check to the preflop raiser, who then often check back flops where they likely whiff like 6-7-8 for example.

You really checking back AA on a 678 flop?

fold - the 2 isn't as good as a card as you may think

A5cc gets there and so does 56

I would think a 1 pair hand is no good here.

Did my post say anything about villains is checking back AA? I said spesifically that they mostly check back when they whiff, like AQ/AK. And if they do, everybody in the pot gets a free card- not only preflop raiser. Thats why i am looking to incorporate more donk lines into my game in appropriate spots.

So can we pls. get the results, if it went to showdown? Or did You fold?


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Ok so if you bet with a set on a 678 flop you get AK out of the pot, wow what a result! I forgot the fundamental theorem to poker was making the worst hand fold.

results

If tight players are flatting with QQ in the Sb to an open, should we ever be that worried with KK vs a donk lead? Is this guy ever going to be lead/4bet jamming a draw for $800 as someone suggested? Still love squeezing on the smaller side to get immediate value. Besides flopping a King what better flops are we looking to get value on?

I would be more on board with flatting if the plan was to then squeeze large on the the turn against another lead n call to put draws in tough spots.

Again, these leads are often attempts at blocking from less than solid players with mediocre hands. Given this player won’t 3bet QQ pre, it’s obvious he’s a player who isn’t likely willing to risk big chunks of his stack without the goods. He called pre in hopes of a “safe” flop to proceed.

Lead ranges are obv a thing tho and it should be incorporated in our games, especially when playing against better players and in better games. If we’re not raising vs donk leads with the top of our range then what are we raising against em with. As always we should have a balanced approach.

If V1 dowsnt have exactly 65 here id be sort of shocked. Donk is usually weak made hands and draws, although its occasionally sets. With the draw heavy board, and a called im raising the flop, id consider it a pretty major error to call. B/sad fold turn.

edit: wouldnt hav ebeen that shocked by a set, but im shocked he had QQ.

I'm not even sure he was value betting. If he thought QQ was the nuts hizzy then why didnt he raise preflop? I bet if you asked him why he jammed he'd say "because you didnt have anything" or "I gotta protect my hand". Fish often bluff with the best hand because they are focused on winning pots, not winning stacks. His eye was on what was already out there in front of him and he wanted it shoveled his way now.

@javi you have spoilers revealed (not sure anyone really cares though at this point), but i truly believe he thought he had the best hand. i gave him a wtf? look with my face/hands and he gave a response where i really believe he thought he had the best hand.

@Tomark I was shocked as well. My read on villain might be off, but I gave the read that I had and we only have so many hours of live poker with some players. I'm not that surprised villain flatted preflop, as he's definitely hte type to try to fade that A on the flop before piling in money. But his x/jam for 150bb was very surprising.

@Team_Josh122 I'm not sure I really follow your logic or agree with it. This whole "what kind of flops are we looking for if not a K?" argument in this context seems kind of weak. The whole point of this thread was to get an understanding of what people here (who presumably have a lot of live experience) think is (described) villain's range. What does a tight short stacking villain, this deep, flat SB with donk 85% flop, x/jam 150bb turn with.

It's not like "what kind of flops are you looking for OP?" It's more like me wondering how my range does vs his donk lead range, and how does my range do against his donk/3bet/get it in range. My turn fold is a similar question.

I haven’t discussed any of Heros play past the flop. I’ve only been concerned with why raising the flop is the best play. What does tight player lead 85% pot with? Exactly what I said before results were posted, TT-QQ n some draws mostly.

As part of a balanced strategy, we should be both raising and calling these lead bets, and both raising and calling need to be balanced. We can’t just raise only our nutted hands. if V lead range is TT-QQ, draws, 9x n sets, how does KK do against that? What hands are you raising vs that range and what hands are you calling vs that range and why.

Don’t have to answer those in forum, just for your own strategic thought process is my point. Best of luck.

ok thanks. i understand what you're saying and your previous post makes more sense in this context. in live poker, i believe the question "What does tight player lead 85% pot with?" is the most important question to understand how our range does vs their range and helps us make the most profitable decisions.

I dont even think range is that important, the question is "why do fish donkbet?" and the simple answer is "to see what happens". In fact he probably expects you to raise KK+ so in his mind he just found out where he's at and thinks he's ahead, because HE would certainly raise with AA. Maybe he actually thought you'd call it off with TT/JJ/NFD, but this is another inherent reason why donkbetting is so bad; you lack the information necessary to make these judgements when you're out of position. I mean all this guy has to go on is that you raised preflop, and suddenly thats all the info he needs to find out he has everyone at the table beat? BOLLOCKS I SAY!

Now if someone has a set and they donkbet they dont really need to know a whole lot about your hand strength because they nearly always have the best hand anyway. But single pairs cant possibly know this which is why they lead out all the time because they feel if they induce action they can play their hand more comfortably (namely by folding).

Now I know there are a few crafty players in this thread who donkbet 2% of the time and get paid off with the nuts, but by and large it's a fish move hence the reason "donk bet", and whenever I encounter it I give it absolutely no respect; if my hand is weak I bluff them off, if my hand is strong I let them valuetown their dumb selves.

Its not a fish move. Its done mostly by fish. There's a big difference. Fish do it, like you said "to find out where they are at". And you are correct that the best way to defend a donk bet by a fish is to raise with your garbage and call with your hands that you are confidant are ahead.

But that doesn't change the fact that leading into the raiser is a good play in several different circumstances. And you better be very careful when a good player leads out into you as the raiser.

eh im not really sure we're talking about different things here. and even in a vacuum, i disagree with your statement. i think its far more important to think about what hands he's doing this with as opposed to why (though i think the "why" is relevant as well). in the end, we are playing our ranges. at least thats how i view it.

I guess my phrasing is pretty bad, since in reality the "why" kinda defines their range. Nobody donkbets with quads to see where they're at, however people donkbet with single pairs to see if they get called or raised. They're buying information in their minds "I'll spend $100 here and if he just calls then I know he has something", vs "omg he just raised me! I must be beat, hundo well spent, now I can fold to avoid losing the rest on later streets".

ok, similar hand I played last night, at least in regards to how these players think. We were only 150BB effective or so but still;

Been at the table for 1 hour, no real reads on anyone other than nobody stands out to me, V1 opens for $20 utg, V2 MP flats, and I decide to get cheeky from the SB with Q9o and 3bet to $100 because thats just how I roll. UTG calls and flop is JTTr, I bet $120. He minraises me to $240 without any hesitation. Ummm, ok... I flat of course and bink K on the turn. I cant say I'm in love with this grave I'm digging. I check and he just jams like it's his birthday. I call and he proudly turns over QQ... Ummm, ok... He didnt comment on my hand at all, but it just kinda illustrates this weird preflop/postflop contradictory mentality.

I honestly believe he flat QQ pre because he was scared of AK+. Thats fine, but nothing has changed on this flop, so why is he suddenly so elated to have an ok'ish overpair? He's clearly value betting in his world because minraising is a hallmark valuebet from a fish. But why? Why is QQ the nuts to him? He feigned the A/K flop but what about me having AA/KK? Anyway so I call, which should set off alarm bells of his own. Possibly one of the worst turns cards hit, the dreaded King. If for some reason he thinks I float him out of position with Ace high (lets be real he didnt contemplate anything like this) the presence of that card should still be a shocker for him despite how unlikely it is I have it. But then he.... JAMS??? Like, where's the value in THAT? What could I possibly have at this point that pays that off? Maybe he thought his hand improved now that he had a draw? Who knows.

Point is when fish take nonsensical lines sometimes you just have to go with it so long as you have a decent hand. Calling with a straight is a lot easier than just an overpair in your situation but this was also a pretty gross board texture especially facing a minraise.

Grunch

I am not sure I like Flatting in this spot - there are many draws available on this flop and plenty of pocket pairs we are ahead of that may get stubborn based on your previous 3 barrrel bluff like say 1010-QQ....to me those hands are in his SB calling range this deep and who cares about short stack w pot this size anyway at this point - either way you can assign plenty of hands you are ahead of based on action - I’m raising to 175-190 ish

As played when they check the turn I am thinking the following ....v could now realize he has a hand with showdown value but could be unsure of your holding - you bet for value (fine of course) but when he jams I don’t know if we can just assume we are beat - he’s donking flop and checking sets with that set of a board and potential holdings you have? I don’t think so - you have the Kc if I remember from op so you block some flush combos which matters a bit - this is a gross spot but I honestly think I’m calling

Javi,


You’re focusing on the wrong thing. You get calls in the middle from a wide range of hands that caught any piece of that flop, which otherwise often get to see the turn for free when it’s multiway. And when PFR has a big overpair (maybe not on 678, but on medium-coordinated flops) he’ll often raise and depending upon the situation you can decide to either re-raise or flat.

I often lead both sets and very vulnerable hands into PFR when there are other players in the middle.

I get it, if you lead with a set you get called by both draws and possibly raised by overpairs. Thing is it's too narrow of a range to just put the initial raiser on overpairs, yet thats what the initial raiser is always trying to rep with a cbet. Herego we if we believe the initial raiser will always raise our donkbet, then we know he must also cbet with his overpairs. The bonus is that he'll also BLUFF sometimes when he misses, so now we get to trap + valuetown him with his entire range.

To me the odds of this outweigh the consequences of giving away a free card to a draw. And if you're that worried about someone drawing out on you, then you definitely want the opportunity to check-raise to really make it pricey. Nobody is folding any serious equity for a pot sized donkbet when all they're calling is 10BB's. Now you make it 30BB's with a check raise and they've got something to think about.

And you can just never balance a donkbet range really. You get called far too often to ever bluff with it so all you're advertising is that you have some dog**** pair to the nuts, thats just giving away too much information to your opponents. At least with a x/r you can sell the idea that YOU might have the draw or the nuts.

Javi,

With a set and players in the middle, I’m not betting because I’m worried about getting drawn out on, I’m betting when I think that’s the best way to get the most money in the pot.

Ok, but I feel that the exchange of money between players in a hand typically involves the preflop raiser since he has initiative and should have a value hand (hence the reason he opened preflop) whereas everyone else was just trying to see a cheap flop with a weak hand that they intend to checkfold the vast majority of the time. Removing the initial raiser from the equation and not even giving him a chance to make a move on the wild assumption that some other random player is our new target just doesnt make much sense to me.

Javi,

In my experience, that’s not an accurate characterization of postflop dynamics in multiway pots at low limit poker.