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2/4: These girls ain't loyal. 2/4: These girls ain't loyal.

08-29-2014 , 08:51 PM
Villain 1 ($230 behind) raises to $20 preflop. I thought he was a nit at first but he straddled the last round (about half the table straddled), so may just be card dead.

Villain 2 ($600+ behind) calls. He likes playing a lot of hands. The table has been loose, so this could be pretty wide. Probably minus premiums because he'd 3-bet.

Villain 3 ($250) 3-bets to $80. He's been loose and fairly aggressive. Showed down some terrible preflop hands but he always called pre and raised when he flopped two pair or better.

Hero ($550) looks down at QQ and all 3 options seem viable.
2/4: These girls ain't loyal. Quote
08-29-2014 , 08:54 PM
Probably in the fold camp.

Edit, 2/4? Is this in Idaho?
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08-29-2014 , 08:55 PM
Given the stacks and reads I can't imagine folding.
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08-29-2014 , 08:59 PM
If I'm reading player descriptions correctly, how are you considering folding? 3bet to 250 to get the shorter stacks in. Shove good flops if the other V calls.
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08-29-2014 , 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wewa925
If I'm reading player descriptions correctly, how are you considering folding? 3bet to 250 to get the shorter stacks in. Shove good flops if the other V calls.
I agree with this given villain descriptions. At that point if villain 2 decides to 4-bet/shove then I'm probably calling it as well.
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08-29-2014 , 09:06 PM
flatting should be good here if v3 is capable of 3-betting a wide range. 3-better is in a squeeze position and could be 3-betting worse hands than ours for value (JJ, AK, AQ). if we 4bet, we probably fold out those worse hands and isolate ourselves vs a range of AK/KK+. if we flat, we keep his range wide and allow v2 who is pretty deep to come along with a weak, dominated range.
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08-29-2014 , 09:15 PM
4bet to 140/gii
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08-29-2014 , 09:23 PM
4 betting is going to fold out everything you beat. Call and let's see the flop. This is going to be pretty easy to play post flop.
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08-29-2014 , 10:03 PM
Do we really want to risk taking this 4 way to the flop when there is a good chance an over card is coming? Not to mention the SPr would be super low if everyone else calls, I just don't see how we could get away unless it comes AKx. I'm happy to get it in vs the aggressive villian with only 62bb. When we get the other villans to fold out their equity it isn't really a bad thing as suited Ax and suited Kx type hands have pretty good equity vs us. I say 4 bet to 140 so if we get a string of callers we can re jam the times villan 3 shoves.

I personally don't think V3 is ever folding anythin after he 4bets. We can just get stacks in as a potential slight favorite vs a 3 bet range of 1010+ and AK with some dead money in the middle. Seems pretty +EV to me.
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08-29-2014 , 10:11 PM
Assuming them "girls ain't loyal" it's a clear fold. Hehe.
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08-29-2014 , 10:22 PM
I think we are right on the edge effective stack size wise for it to be close between shoving and flatting. But I think I prefer flatting - especially considering v1 may actually be a nit. Shoving / making it $200 is so fing strong, I think it's very likely we can Fold out TT-JJ & AQ-AK. The thought of going 4 way to the flop and being committed to go with our hand on a majority of flops is also pretty gross.

Pretty much don't fold vs a LAG in this spot <100bbs deep ... Other than that , all options should be fine.
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08-29-2014 , 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
4 betting is going to fold out everything you beat. Call and let's see the flop. This is going to be pretty easy to play post flop.
You don't think iso 4! small/fold to ~150 here would be reasonable? 4-way in a bloated pre pot with QQ is pretty nasty (3 is very different). If we flat I think it'll be very, very tempting for 1 and 2 to come along.

Taking this four ways means the SPRs will be so low that anyone with a piece of the flop will ship/reship in front of us, and contrary to what you said, I feel like we'll have very little clarity post. What do we do in the face of two ships on a board of, say, J74ss? Even if we do gii on the flop, we'll have significantly damaged equity. I don't mind having to race combo draws since we are usually still technically ahead, but I hate having to play the "is it two pair+ or combo-?" guessing game in bloated, one street post decisions.

Even if everything that we beat is folded out like you said, I don't see taking down $125 pre without seeing a flop as a poor result.

R/f $150 seems fine to me. If he has KK+ he gii, and he would have to be a maniac aggro monkey to pile or 5! AK- and JJ-. I think there's a significant range of worse that he flats with.
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08-29-2014 , 10:43 PM
The guy squeezed 1/3 of his stack and is described as laggy in the OP. Also he has 60 big blinds. And we have QQ. lol at folding this hand for 60bb against described villain. Double lol at 4bet/folding.

We don't really want this pot to go multiway with these shallow stack depths and we are doing fine against a laggy villains 3bet range and 60bb stack when we have QQ
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08-29-2014 , 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutro
Taking this four ways means the SPRs will be so low that anyone with a piece of the flop will ship/reship in front of us, and contrary to what you said, I feel like we'll have very little clarity post.
I'm not looking for clarity. If the OP 4bets, we'll have lots of clarity but not much money. Worse hands fold and better hands GII. This is a place where working with pokercruncher or other such programs helps. Put ranges in and figure out what flops are good for you. In a 4 way pot, people are going to play it straight this shallow. Nobody with any level of sanity is going to be bluffing.
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08-29-2014 , 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
Nobody with any level of sanity is going to be bluffing.
It's not a concern with bluffing, it's people overvaluing their holdings and putting us in sticky decisions that we could have avoided by iso'ing. If it's a 9-high board and an EP has 1010, they're sending their stack to the middle. If another person has a FD or OESD, equity sends their stack to the middle as well. There's lots of boards like 6910 that with only one street of betting information we're inclined to call off on with JJ+ but we're behind more often than we'd like. We also can't call up an equity and ranging calculator at the table. I guess an hour of stove a day keeps the donkeys at bay?

My preference is simply to make postflop life easier. You're a better player than I am, so I'll give you credit for being right here because of your better postflop skills, but I think the vast majority of LLSNL posters would do better at this stage to iso/fold.

That said, eight months ago I was a participant in nearly this same scenario when QQ, in last actor position too!, scooped a 4200 pot, 4 ways, flopping QQQ vs 888 vs AQ vs my oesd+fd, so I'll just leave that as it is to contrary myself. Even though every equity decision I made was (exactly) 134% correct I still wish I was the one with QQQ, lol.
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08-29-2014 , 11:56 PM
Call unless v3 gii light. Raising gets everything we dominate to fold.
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08-30-2014 , 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
I'm not looking for clarity. If the OP 4bets, we'll have lots of clarity but not much money. Worse hands fold and better hands GII. This is a place where working with pokercruncher or other such programs helps. Put ranges in and figure out what flops are good for you. In a 4 way pot, people are going to play it straight this shallow. Nobody with any level of sanity is going to be bluffing.
There is $120 in the middle with effective stacks of $260. We are 52% against TT+,AK. Even if villain plays perfectly against our min 4bet (quite the assumption against described villain and many other weak LLSNL players) we are +ev against his range.

Assuming he will fold JJ with 60bb after already putting 20bb in the pot vs a described LAG is quite the assumption.
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