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2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? 2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd?

01-28-2018 , 08:27 PM
Casino, $2/$4 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 10 players.
The current table has been playing for about 4 hours and I have a tight aggressive image.

UTG: $112 (loose fish happy to throw his money around)
UTG+1: $200
UTG+2: $200
UTG+3: $200
UTG+4: $200
Hero (HJ): $486
CO: $200
BTN: $350 (bad beginner)
SB: $650 (unclear, a little loose preflop, played TPTK like its the absolute nuts in one hand)
BB: $250 (was tight for the first few hours, but the last hour or so has been playing loose)

Preflop: Hero is HJ with 99
UTG straddles $10, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $26, fold, BTN calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls

This was the second straddle of the day and most raises were to $15 so I thought $26 should get me just one caller. I was wrong.

Flop: ($130) 863 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $90, BTN folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls and is all-in

The perfect flop to get called by draws so I size big.

Turn: ($400) T (3 players, 1 is all-in)
SB checks, Hero?

I have $370 behind and SB covers.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-28-2018 , 08:35 PM
I'd actually size a bit bigger OTF to set up an easy turn shove if merited, and to make a chain of callers less likely.

AP, a PSB shove in a protected pot is too big, imo. With only one card to come, you may loos all of the draws and only get calls from better hands. I probably go $170-200, even though it only leaves a very small bet behind OTR.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-28-2018 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
I'd actually size a bit bigger OTF to set up an easy turn shove if merited, and to make a chain of callers less likely.

AP, a PSB shove in a protected pot is too big, imo. With only one card to come, you may loos all of the draws and only get calls from better hands. I probably go $170-200, even though it only leaves a very small bet behind OTR.
Ok, thanks. After he called the flop I removed strong made hands from his range and put him on clubs, 8x and a couple of straight draws. Your bet size makes sense against this range.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-28-2018 , 09:52 PM
What does betting the turn accomplish? And if we do bet the turn it absolutely has to be a jam. I'm just more inclined to check it back and play a river.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-28-2018 , 10:10 PM
It gets value from draws that won't call river if they miss.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-28-2018 , 11:30 PM
We get put in a spot on the river where we have to call any bet. Do we fold every club runout? What about overs that come in?

Just feels to fancy starting a sidepot while giving him odds to call.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 01:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrubyKGB
What does betting the turn accomplish? And if we do bet the turn it absolutely has to be a jam. I'm just more inclined to check it back and play a river.
I was thinking that betting (all in) on the turn denies him his equity share + gets value from worse if he decides to hero call with 8x or gamble with his draws.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 01:02 AM
Shove turn. Well played other than preflop sizing.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouAreAwesome
I was thinking that betting (all in) on the turn denies him his equity share + gets value from worse if he decides to hero call with 8x or gamble with his draws.
Its not gambling if he is getting 3-1 on his money and his draws are at about 30% to hit if not a little more. Im not so sure about 8x either that's a really tough spot for him to call you there. We also need to remember it's a dry side pot we are jamming into
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 02:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrubyKGB
Its not gambling if he is getting 3-1 on his money and his draws are at about 30% to hit if not a little more. Im not so sure about 8x either that's a really tough spot for him to call you there. We also need to remember it's a dry side pot we are jamming into
Yeah for sure he should call with two overs + FD. But how does the dry side pot affect my decision? I was thinking I wanted to get it in with the best hand and I was confident I was ahead of the straddle raiser so removing SB's equity seemed like a good idea.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Shove turn. Well played other than preflop sizing.
Thanks.

My action on the turn was

Spoiler:
All in


How big would you go preflop? If I were to play the hand again I think I would make it $35 pre.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrubyKGB
Its not gambling if he is getting 3-1 on his money and his draws are at about 30% to hit if not a little more. Im not so sure about 8x either that's a really tough spot for him to call you there. We also need to remember it's a dry side pot we are jamming into
We're on the turn. only combo draws have 30% now. All of his one way draws are 18% or less to hit.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 11:02 AM
Preflop sizing is good with straddler only have 11 effective BBs.

OTT, I'm inclined to bet this particular hand like $125, but this isn't how I'd play AA or 54cc. That probably doesn't matter, though, with a dry sidepot with this little money left behind, particularly against this player.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 11:38 AM
This is the nicest hh format I've ever seen
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
I'd actually size a bit bigger OTF to set up an easy turn shove if merited, and to make a chain of callers less likely.

AP, a PSB shove in a protected pot is too big, imo. With only one card to come, you may loos all of the draws and only get calls from better hands. I probably go $170-200, even though it only leaves a very small bet behind OTR.
SB has ~$425 left. If he calls a $175 bet OTT, he has $250 left & he put $175 into a pot of $750 [23.33%]. Odds of making a flush: 9/44 = 20.45%

So, Garick is willing to go after V's money, making him a 3% money dog. I guess he is willing to fold to a on the river. This is his style, giving them rope to hang themselves, but I've never been able to make it this thin.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouAreAwesome
Yeah for sure he should call with two overs + FD. But how does the dry side pot affect my decision? I was thinking I wanted to get it in with the best hand and I was confident I was ahead of the straddle raiser so removing SB's equity seemed like a good idea.
We could potentially be putting our money in drawing super thin to the main pot. Yeah not likely but do you really want to get stacks in with a pair of 9s ? This is the board for it i guess.

If he calls with FD+overs( 15 outs he's about 34%) but he could just as easily have Ax and be (12 outs 27%). Am I doing this math wrong Garlick? I'm not sure where we're getting 18% at. These are just the combos we are ahead of. There are plenty of 10x in his range as well that has us absolutely smoked. Random 2 pairs on occasion but not likely.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 04:03 PM
$250/call on turn for me.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 04:32 PM
9/46 = ~20%
12/46 = 26%
15/46 = 33%
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 05:10 PM
Yeah, I was just using rule of 2 and 4, rather than full calc, and non-combo draws are max 9 outs to the flush, with SDs at 8 (or less for gutshots, but those prob have some trips outs)
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
9/46 = ~20%
12/46 = 26%
15/46 = 33%
If we put him on 2 clubs, we have 44 unknown cards
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia
This is the nicest hh format I've ever seen
Thanks! I copied the hm2 format

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7
$250/call on turn for me.
Cool. The consensus seems to be to bet somewhere between $125-allin. I think I would prefer to reduce the variance and deny the equity with the larger bet as you suggest (though I'm still leaning towards all-in) but I can see how a smaller size offers the rope...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
If we put him on 2 clubs, we have 44 unknown cards
I'm not sure we can put him on exactly two clubs, rather two clubs is a large part of his range. There are still 46 unknown cards.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-29-2018 , 08:07 PM
Turn is a pretty clear shrug jam imo.

This isn’t a protected pot on A72r where a whale called ai otf (which weights him to Ax). In that case we couldn’t bluff/barrel turn bc pot is “protected”

On an 863cc flop there is no protection, ai villain can literally have 5 high here. We could bluff jam clubs, for value, when you think about range vs range equity.

Because of this, and because literally every river sucks, I think turn is a pretty clear stuff and fade the snap call.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-30-2018 , 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia
Turn is a pretty clear shrug jam imo.

This isn’t a protected pot on A72r where a whale called ai otf (which weights him to Ax). In that case we couldn’t bluff/barrel turn bc pot is “protected”

On an 863cc flop there is no protection, ai villain can literally have 5 high here. We could bluff jam clubs, for value, when you think about range vs range equity.

Because of this, and because literally every river sucks, I think turn is a pretty clear stuff and fade the snap call.
Awesome, thanks.

And for the record, not because I'm results oriented, but because it was a weird-confusing action from him, he...

Spoiler:
folded JJ face up ???? I had removed this because of his flop action -- he said he put me on QQ+ or better... I said I would play these the same so good fold but what I meant was "Huh? What the?"
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-30-2018 , 09:41 AM
What happens in dry sidepots is that you can't have a bluffing range, so you have a very linear range, the bottom of which is betting to achieve some mergy stuff (price out draws, get some better hands to fold, isolate against the all-in player). From villain's perspective, it always looks stupid strong because they know you're not bluffing, so it isn't worth calling unless they've pretty much got half your range beat.

In other words, it's one of those rare scenarios where the gap concept actually applies like it was originally drafted to.

Last edited by TenHighCallDown; 01-30-2018 at 10:06 AM.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote
01-31-2018 , 02:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenHighCallDown
What happens in dry sidepots is that you can't have a bluffing range, so you have a very linear range, the bottom of which is betting to achieve some mergy stuff (price out draws, get some better hands to fold, isolate against the all-in player). From villain's perspective, it always looks stupid strong because they know you're not bluffing, so it isn't worth calling unless they've pretty much got half your range beat.

In other words, it's one of those rare scenarios where the gap concept actually applies like it was originally drafted to.
Ah okay, of course. Well said.
2/4 should I shove turn with 9d9h on 8s6c3cTd? Quote

      
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