Because I'm not convinced V will bet river deep enough for us to get stacks in.

Grunch.

Must shove. Must shove. (OK, could do smaller raises, but you must raise here). ainec.

You have the fourth nutz. KJss, J8ss and QT beat you. Lot's of lower full houses pay you off.

This is especially true against V (aggressive), who prolly knows you're aggressive. A high flush might even pay off a min raise. Could even argue for a min raise to rep the nut flush, to get him to think you are raise/folding. I don't like that line, I like shove.

cliffs:
shove>small raise>>>>call

Interesting read, ok seems that the consensus is to raise, whether it be min or shove and i have to say i was certainly going to do that, until i tanked and really thought about the hand and flatted - here's why.

I was thinking the same as bip! in this quote. As V usually raises PF with any pockets, i ruled out him having a smaller fullhouse with 99 or TT. I'd also expect him to lead or c/r me on flop with a small flush.

Although i described V as solid player and a bit LAGish, i was on BTN this hand, which i had been raising alot, and wouldnt be that surprised to see him have QTsuited or KJs.

So having said that, i put him on A-high flush, QT fullhouse or straightflush.

Thinking back through the action of the hand, i couldnt see how V could possibly call a re-raise with A-high flush. I bet flop and turn, and he showed a really strong line by c/c flop, c/r turn and leading almost pot on river...how could he call a re-raise on a paired board?? Even though i was aggressive and bluffed him previously, id seen him make some difficult laydowns (eg 2 pair against a guys bigger 2 pair). With A-high flush against a re-raise on river, you are only beating a bluff, which has a likelihood of basically 0% on this board. Hence, i used that old saying of 'theres no point raising if you are only going to be called by a hand that beats you'

I do understand the idea of re-raising and giving him the chance to make a mistake and call, but i just didnt see it happening against this V and since i wasn't convinced i was good i decided not to risk it. Even if i min-raise, what do i do if he shoves? There's no way i would be good if he took this action, yet id almost have to call as id have $200 to call and the pot would be over $1100 (id still fold).

These statements are a little inconsistent. If he is open-raising all pockets all the time UTG, he is not solid. Sure, discount worse FHs some, but he should be mixing it up especially if you are on the button and he is expecting you to raise light. And I'm note sure the fact that a raise is likely makes it more likely that he has a crap hand like QT suited or KsJs (and if that were true, shouldn't you be raising)?

Yeah look you might be right and the fact i was BTN might not have anything to do with it. While QT and KJ suited UTG is a fold for some, particularly online and stricter TAG players, anyone who regularly plays live at these limits at casino's know that most players love to see a flop with these hands and they can win huge pots...alot of live players at my casino (crown in melbourne, australia) dont properly understand bet sizes and odds, and therefore bet amounts post flop that make it cheap to chase. Yes he could raise with these hands, but bottom line is i would not be surprised to see him limp call with this hand either, even UTG. He was 200bb's deep and while i would raise pre in his position, dont hate the limp at that particular table either.

FWIW, 'solid' might not be the best description, i dont mean he is 'tight', but will not enter with rags like 94 suited even and will pick his spots to bluff when he has the initiative, and not do something stupid or crazy. Suited connectors and 1gappers are in his range for a limp call.

results? pm me if you dont want to post here?

As i mentioned in i think my last post or 2, i thought deeply about this and decided, especially as id seen V make a few big folds, he would not be calling me with A-high flush on a paired board, i mean the whole line from the flop is so strong...i certainly wouldnt call if i was him...of course i could be wrong and maybe he would crying call or level himself into calling, but that was my read at the time

moditude, you don't seem to be a nefarious p0aster, but what % of your posts are asking for results?

Recently, 1/3rd probably ;p I'm a results whore. I took a big break from 2+2, before the break I don't think I asked much for results because people put it in the spoiler.

Eh if he's thinking I don't see him calling a shove with 99 or TT as often as he has QT. Calling is not the worst thing in the world.

I am pretty sure that the results are "V turned over a hand the Hero beat.. and hero is wondering if he missed value".

I normally flame people pretty hard for MUBs, but flatting here wouldn't be MUBs imo.

The real question is should you have gone ride or die ott, which I probably would have.

Good point.. and Rumor brought this up too. He will likely call bets wider on the turn than on the river... there is certainly a case that could be made that value was missed OTT.

I want to know if it was 99!

uhh you mean TT? That's 3 times as likely when we hold a 9

I know but I figure he'd raise TT

I'm guessing OP got coolered.

It's literally true that he "will call bets wider on the turn than he will on the river." But if that is true, we should be raising river because it says that he might be willing to get it in drawing to a hand that we already beat, right? I mean, the one good player at the table is not three-bet calling to draw to a four-card straight-flush, I hope. So if the idea is that AsJx might be willing to call/raise a turn three-bet OTT hoping to bink a spade (or straight maybe), then we should be raising OTR.

I don't think a flat-call OTR is the worst MUB ever but you have an above-average FH and there are not 300 BBs left to go in.

but not 99? The hands are really close to being the same thing on that board.

haha moditude ill put up the results for you mate.

V showed A8 spades.

There definitely can be an argument made for missed value OTT or OTR, id like to pick your brains a little more on this.

To the guys who think getting more money in OTT would be a better move, can you please explain to me why?

If we put ourselves in V's shoes, what do we expect our opponent to have when, in a multi-way pot, he bets OTF, bets OTT, then goes over the top of our c/r from $100 to say, $240 or more? In my experience, this is a fullhouse basically every single time, what else could it be? Totally plausible for opponent to bet flop with 2 pair or set (i hadnt actually been raising medium pp's pre so 99 was a possibility). I guess im asking if you would call given the action and paired board with your A-high flush OTT OOP because if the answer is yes, maybe i will start making that move more often in future.

A lot of it is because of the wet board and not-advanced thinking on his part... Villain will level himself into believing you could be aggressive with a combo hand (Q + spade / J etc) .. i.e. hands that could still improve. And also, villain will be rather stubborn to release a nut flush he decided to slow play on the previous street. Now the same argument can be made OTR about stubborn with the nut flush, but your bet on the river rules out any hero hand that overvalued a high spade or a J or trip queens... so he may be inclined to call wider OTT and it also paces stacks in better. Otherwise the river shove is sill such a large raise.

Villains typically have a tough time releases that A-flush, so a lot is villain dependent in this river spot, but you probably did miss value from a min-raise or such.. if you raise turn you can get all in on the river without such a seemingly huge/strong river raise.. and V is more likely to make a crying call with a wider range.

... also, often Villains just don't think on a level we give them credit for.. sometimes they are just happy they have a flush and it is A-high... and he doesn't correctly deduce from your line that this is no doubt a FH OTT

As an initial matter, you don't have bottom full house. If he is only playing QT suited, you have an above-median FH. Even if you discount it some from how he played it, he can have a worse FH.

Second, as bip! suggested, there are plenty of missed combo-type draws in your range. This is true especially since you just called the re-raise OTT. The flat-call suggests you wouldn't mind seeing another card. So hands like KsJx, QxJs, KsTx and Ks9x, T9, maybe KxXx are all hands you could conceivably get to the river with but decide you need to bluff with (spazz or not). He only needs to bluff-catch these, or think you could be owning yourself with AQ or a straight, like one or two times to make it a clear raise. If you had a super-nit image then maybe, but your image is quasi-shot based on the OP.

THANK YOU SIR.

Surprised he showed up with such a bad hand. Guess it totally means all QTs was definitely in his range there so I don't mind your flat call.

It's possible he was c/r the turn to see where he was at too, if you raised or shoved on him he might have just folded since he might put you on a FH.

Don't think it's a clear shove anymore on river since he in fact showed up with A8s, didn't think that would be in his range.

Woop

All things considered, I don't hate V's river bet from his perspective. It's not that efficient of a bet ($180 probably achieves the same result), but as long as he is capable of b/f, it makes the decision pretty easy as only better is coming over the top (he's got you flatting a FH).

Now that we've dissected the hand pretty thoroughly, I agree that flatting here is probably best. Not sure I could have arrived at that in game though.