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/: Facing River C/R /: Facing River C/R

05-22-2014 , 06:18 PM
Villain 1 is a mid-aged middle eastern man wanting to gamble. He’s been buying in at the table $100 a piece and finally ran up a stack. He called a cbet holding 3 high with 32o and hit runner-runner 2s on the turn and river to win the pot. He’s also made a 200max bet bluff on the river. He mucked his hand immediately after being called.

Villain 2 is a mid-aged asian man. He talks like a tag but plays a weak-tight style of game. He is capable of folding hands. He likes to take his time deliberating for a couple of minutes before folding even though everyone can smell a mile away that he’s going to fold.

Hero has been having a losing session for the majority of the night. Finally, in quick succession, and after playing snug for a couple of hours, hero is involved in 2 hands in a row taking down a decent-sized pot. The following is the 3rd hand in a row.

Live $2/$4 Full Ring Cash Game at Oaks (200maximum bet or raise on top with $400 max buy-in and $5 drop)

Stacks:
Villain 1 is SB with $385
Hero is MP+2 with $600
Villain 2 is CO with $400

Pre-Flop: ($6) Hero is MP+2 with A J
Folds to Hero who raises to $20, CO calls $20, Sb calls $18, BB folds.

Flop: 4 4 A ($60, 3 players)
SB (V1) bets $20, Hero calls, CO (V2) calls.

Turn: 7 ($120, 3 players)
V1 checks, Hero bets $70, V2 calls $70, V1 calls $70

River: K ($330, 3 players)
V1 checks, Hero bets $125, V2 folds, V1 c/r to $275 and is all-in, Hero?


Do you call here because it is an easy call with you getting close to 5:1 and only need to be good here 1 out of 6 times or do you fold because a play like c/r the river is representative of the nuts because nobody at this level is capable of doing it as a bluff?

I put in a bet size of a little over 1/3 the pot as a value bet to get paid off by worse. V2 sat there thinking and talked to me trying to get a read out of me. He says he has AQ and thinks this is a chop but ends up folding. When it was V1’s turn, he talks to me and says, “You can’t have it 3 times in a row. I don’t believe you have an Ace. I’m all-in!”
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05-22-2014 , 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsissy
When it was V1’s turn, he talks to me and says, “You can’t have it 3 times in a row. I don’t believe you have an Ace. I’m all-in!”
This makes it a fold imo. Any kind of I don't believe you speech is always the nuts. Obviously any time this guy bets theres a non zero chance its a bluff, but its hard to see him bluffing here. The board is dry as hell so he would have had to reverse float twice with air to set up this bluff. He also didn't max bet it. Looks like he wants a call. I fold here.
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05-22-2014 , 08:36 PM
Also just check river. After getting called twice on the turn you are in bad shape.
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05-22-2014 , 08:42 PM
A river raise on a paired board at LLSNL is ALWAYS a full house. Every single time. No matter what. Without fail. Every fricken time.
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05-22-2014 , 11:01 PM
first terrible bet on the river. most anything they have beats you or ties you or they dont call.

ill go against the grain and say call. i dont like the speech but sometimes they are telling the truth as to what they are doing and this time you are getting good odds to find out from a crazy loose bluffer.
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05-22-2014 , 11:13 PM
$150 to win $730...?

check turn, don't bet small on the river. you aren't getting 3 streets of value with this hand. you overplayed it imo.
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05-23-2014 , 11:55 AM
You state that V1 likes to gamble and calls supee light and raises with air and mucked when called. To me, you flat called the turn which he might be thinking your weaker than you are and on the river he feels like your bet is a scared bet and is taking advatange of the situation. Im trying to put myself in his shoes, which is hard because he probably didn't put you on a range, just decided to bluff. Your getting 1/5 on your money and I think you have his range beat over 75% of the time here considering he has tons of bluffs and air hands.

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05-23-2014 , 12:17 PM
the only time i would bet this hand on the river would be against a player that would fold and not call for half the pot when i put him on an ace with me. and it would have to be a large bet otherwise he is free rolling on me.
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05-23-2014 , 12:18 PM
You overplayed the hand on river....after getting called by 2 V's on turn...not sure what you're expecting to get called on river by that you're ahead of. Just check river....

Any pair of A's is a split pot...
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05-23-2014 , 12:33 PM
I bet a little over 1/3 the pot on the river because I was going for thin value. There was also the chance I could make an Ace fold and not having to chop. V2 was really upset for the rest of the session because he couldn't believe he'd folded AQ to me. My feeling was that his frustration was genuine because he wouldn't stop talking about it to his friend and pointing me out, "I can't believe this guy!"

My question really revolves around V1 though and whether or not I should call. He's all-in for his last $150 over my $125 bet. I believe this player profile can get married to his pocket pair hand and have a hard time folding at the river because he'd believe he'd committed himself by calling OTF and OTT. I also believe if he'd had a 4, I would have heard by now.

I'm all about value betting thin because that's what separates the great players from the good players. I believe this spot to be a b/f if our stacks were deeper though.
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05-23-2014 , 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsissy
I bet a little over 1/3 the pot on the river because I was going for thin value. There was also the chance I could make an Ace fold and not having to chop. V2 was really upset for the rest of the session because he couldn't believe he'd folded AQ to me. My feeling was that his frustration was genuine because he wouldn't stop talking about it to his friend and pointing me out, "I can't believe this guy!"

My question really revolves around V1 though and whether or not I should call. He's all-in for his last $150 over my $125 bet. I believe this player profile can get married to his pocket pair hand and have a hard time folding at the river because he'd believe he'd committed himself by calling OTF and OTT. I also believe if he'd had a 4, I would have heard by now.

I'm all about value betting thin because that's what separates the great players from the good players. I believe this spot to be a b/f if our stacks were deeper though.
The guy who folded AQ is a complete idiot....you did not put that in the thread...haha. You're essentially calling to chop a pot. Also if V does have a 4, where in the hand should he be worrying about losing the pot?? Any somewhat competent player is putting you on Ax....think you're leading out with AA???

Value is a very important key but this isn't one of the spots to be getting more value. This is a spot where your bet only gets called by a hand tying you or beating you....

Also if V is married to his middle pair thinking he is good...why would he be raising you??
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05-23-2014 , 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OSUTexan
The guy who folded AQ is a complete idiot....you did not put that in the thread...haha. You're essentially calling to chop a pot. Also if V does have a 4, where in the hand should he be worrying about losing the pot?? Any somewhat competent player is putting you on Ax....think you're leading out with AA???

Value is a very important key but this isn't one of the spots to be getting more value. This is a spot where your bet only gets called by a hand tying you or beating you....

Also if V is married to his middle pair thinking he is good...why would he be raising you??
I basically just came back to type this, but it was done for me.

Also, if V does have worse here, you should follow him from table to table and casino to casino.
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05-23-2014 , 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsissy
Villain 1 is a mid-aged middle eastern man wanting to gamble. He’s been buying in at the table $100 a piece and finally ran up a stack. He called a cbet holding 3 high with 32o and hit runner-runner 2s on the turn and river to win the pot. He’s also made a 200max bet bluff on the river. He mucked his hand immediately after being called.

Villain 2 is a mid-aged asian man. He talks like a tag but plays a weak-tight style of game. He is capable of folding hands. He likes to take his time deliberating for a couple of minutes before folding even though everyone can smell a mile away that he’s going to fold.

Hero has been having a losing session for the majority of the night. Finally, in quick succession, and after playing snug for a couple of hours, hero is involved in 2 hands in a row taking down a decent-sized pot. The following is the 3rd hand in a row.

Live $2/$4 Full Ring Cash Game at Oaks (200maximum bet or raise on top with $400 max buy-in and $5 drop)

Stacks:
Villain 1 is SB with $385
Hero is MP+2 with $600
Villain 2 is CO with $400

Pre-Flop: ($6) Hero is MP+2 with A J
Folds to Hero who raises to $20, CO calls $20, Sb calls $18, BB folds.

Flop: 4 4 A ($60, 3 players)
SB (V1) bets $20, Hero calls, CO (V2) calls.

Turn: 7 ($120, 3 players)
V1 checks, Hero bets $70, V2 calls $70, V1 calls $70

River: K ($330, 3 players)
V1 checks, Hero bets $125, V2 folds, V1 c/r to $275 and is all-in, Hero?


Do you call here because it is an easy call with you getting close to 5:1 and only need to be good here 1 out of 6 times or do you fold because a play like c/r the river is representative of the nuts because nobody at this level is capable of doing it as a bluff?

I put in a bet size of a little over 1/3 the pot as a value bet to get paid off by worse. V2 sat there thinking and talked to me trying to get a read out of me. He says he has AQ and thinks this is a chop but ends up folding. When it was V1’s turn, he talks to me and says, “You can’t have it 3 times in a row. I don’t believe you have an Ace. I’m all-in!”
I think I bet maximum of $200 on river to try and fold out a chop... As played it's gross but I prob call
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05-23-2014 , 01:29 PM
Please post results.

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05-23-2014 , 01:40 PM
The river bet is not +EV. Check.

As played, I don't know. The speech and the river c/r both suggest significant and reliable strength. But then this guy seems a bit like a spew monkey, and I agree with Ray sometimes the speech is truthful, especially with this guy.

I'd probably call given villain description and lol pot odds.

But the river bet is no good.
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05-23-2014 , 02:37 PM
So the consensus is lead out turn and c/c river? Or if BTN bets and V1 c/r then fold?
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05-23-2014 , 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsissy
I'm all about value betting thin because that's what separates the great players from the good players. I believe this spot to be a b/f if our stacks were deeper though.
If you still had a kicker, sure. But after getting called in two places and then counterfeited on the river, I think it's a clear check.

As played, there's no way I'm folding to the villain you described getting 5:1, even with the speech.
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05-23-2014 , 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
The river bet is not +EV. Check.

As played, I don't know. The speech and the river c/r both suggest significant and reliable strength. But then this guy seems a bit like a spew monkey, and I agree with Ray sometimes the speech is truthful, especially with this guy.

I'd probably call given villain description and lol pot odds.

But the river bet is no good.
Im confused. What if he did check the river and v1 shoves. Now its an easy fold even though v1 is bluffing or betting with an ace most of the time?. The only hands he could have that beat the hero are 34, 45, 77, A7, and A4. Now we don't have much information on this player, but if hero checks and v1 is known to shove junk on river. is it a call?

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05-23-2014 , 03:03 PM
Grunch:

Um, turn bet is okay I guess. Check that river bro and fold if V2 bets behind you.

As played call. Just a piece of advice: don't bet for thin value if you plan to fold to a raise. If you're going to fold, then just check behind.
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05-23-2014 , 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowdownValue
Grunch:

Um, turn bet is okay I guess. Check that river bro and fold if V2 bets behind you.

As played call. Just a piece of advice: don't bet for thin value if you plan to fold to a raise. If you're going to fold, then just check behind.
Well it really depends on the raise size and odds in determining to call or fold.
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05-23-2014 , 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowdownValue
Grunch:

As played call. Just a piece of advice: don't bet for thin value if you plan to fold to a raise. If you're going to fold, then just check behind.
This is all kinds of wrong.

If you are betting for thin value on the river, you should almost always be bet/folding. And checking back because you don't want to be raised is terrible logic.
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05-23-2014 , 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubey
This is all kinds of wrong.

If you are betting for thin value on the river, you should almost always be bet/folding. And checking back because you don't want to be raised is terrible logic.
We have a hand that wins/ties a showdown frequently. If we are going to bet IP here, it is because we believe we have the best hand and that V will call with worse (he likely won't in this spot). That means that we shouldn't be folding to a raise. If that is our plan, then checking back is best. My logic is fine.

b/f for thin value is so exploitable it's not even funny.

We don't care if V c/r here because we decided before we bet the river that we have a hand strong enough to seek value. Why are we going to level ourselves into changing our minds because we didn't get the reaction from V that we wanted? If that's our justification for folding, then we should have just checked the river.
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05-23-2014 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowdownValue
We have a hand that wins/ties a showdown frequently. If we are going to bet IP here, it is because we believe we have the best hand and that V will call with worse (he likely won't in this spot). That means that we shouldn't be folding to a raise. If that is our plan, then checking back is best. My logic is fine.

b/f for thin value is so exploitable it's not even funny.

We don't care if V c/r here because we decided before we bet the river that we have a hand strong enough to seek value. Why are we going to level ourselves into changing our minds because we didn't get the reaction from V that we wanted? If that's our justification for folding, then we should have just checked the river.
If you are betting for thin value, that is fine. But if your opp raises once you do so you have to re-evaluate. I think folding when you get raised after betting thin is okay, but you have to re-evaluate and make the best decision you can based on the players image and information.

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06-04-2014 , 08:54 PM
Villain had KK and rivered a full house.

GG
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06-05-2014 , 02:25 AM
bad beat but remember you bet small and gave them 4 or 5 to 1 on each street plus giant implied odds on the river if they hit to out draw you. and he did.
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