Hero has been playing for about an hour. The game is tougher than usual and hero is waiting for a table change. Hero probably has a LAG/Thinking player image, has been raising for $15 almost every time he enters the pot. Has only shown down 1 hand, JJ calling an all-in from a shortstack earlier in the session. Has $285 behind.

Villain is a young indian male, most likely mid 20s, has about $700, and seems very TAG and unlikely to get out of line. He has shown a propensity to 3-bet pre-flop relatively often but could just be getting cards.

OTTH

UTG Limps, Villain UTG+1 limps, Hero makes standard raise to $15 with red Queens
Button calls, BB calls, both limpers call.

Flop is 783
Checks to Hero who bets $60, only villain calls.

Turn 4
V checks. Hero?

A shove is a slightly more than a potsized bet at this point, the board is draw heavy with a possible straight though...

I've noticed $15 means less at the 2/3 bike game recently. Try adjusting your sizing so you know how much you need to make it to get 1 or 2 callers. Keep in mind how that might affect your range as far as SPR & short-stacks go.

I think you could have gotten away with $50 OTF, but either way, it seems like that bet puts us at the "commitment" threshold as we've got about 1/3 of our stack in the pot. If you don't want to commit, check this back.

Anyways, the only over-p I see in his range are 9s. He could also have a straight, draw, 2p or TP at this point. Our hand has been played fairly face up as we have many more over pairs in our perceived range than AJ+ss. (Well, depending on how LAGgy we've been). I don't think he calls with worse often, so I might lean to checking it back & going for small value on safe rivers. I'd be willing to call a fair amount of river donks for cheap & check it back on bad rivers.

edit: sort of random, and probably bad, but would anyone check this flop? It's a 5 way, in a pot that connects well with people's limping ranges. I realize we have no reads or stacks on other players, but hypothetically, under what circumstances, of any, would you recommend not c-betting this board?

i like a shove here. vil's range is likely flush draws, top pair, maybe some 7's, and occasionally 56 (based on his description likely only 4 combos of this in his range). we're crushing this range. i think some bet is required for protection and anything other than a shove puts us in a **** spot if a spade, 5, 6, or 8 rolls off on the river. shoving also could look a little bluffy which could induce a call from something as marginal as top pair as he could put you on a FD

Your read on villain is a mess. Young Indian, 3bet often, unlikely to get out of line, tag, l/c x/c x line.

This isn't a tough spot. Raise more pre. AP announce "all you can eat!", and pull out your wallet for the rebuy.

Sizing a little awkward OTT...... a slightly bigger bet OTF would fix that (but you don't know how many callers you're getting). In any event - I think a shove or check is in order. You can't really bet in between and get away from the hand.

I'm in favour of the shove. The drawing hands far outweigh the made hands at this point... and any spade or card between 5 - J is a scare card.

You need to bet to get value from draws. You're way too shallow to bet-fold. Any reasonable bet leaves you with ~50 left in a $300+ dollar pot. You don't have much option other than to shove. Plenty of worse might call, including worse pairs and draws.

Looks like 15 is your default raise even with limpers? That is bad. People have shown their interested in the pot, play a tighter range and raise larger, like $21.

Villain is "very TAG and unlikely to get out of line".
What do TAGs limp-call UTG+1, then call with on this board?
I am all sorts of confused why people think Villain's range is so weak.
I highly doubt Villain is a TAG if he's showing up with a 7 in this spot.

I find it interesting that people think bet fold is bad here. My hindsight on the hand (understanding the result of course,) is that I could have bet around $80 and gone Bet/Fold and checked back most rivers if he calls.

AP I shoved the turn and the villain snap called, showing me a set of threes. As soon as he called I felt certain I was beat and immediately realized he wasn't calling anything I was beating except maybe a big draw.

cooler

Bet much less otf. AP bet sometimes (your image) and ck sometimes (his range) Decide riv.

That's interesting... I see your point. It does feel like we are overcommitting too early. But I think the bigger lesson I take on the hand is the Villain's play... One of my weakness is to tend to jump on big hands. Had I been villain in this case - I'm sure I would have led or c/r the flop - and likely let Hero escape. I find it a fine line between building pot, protecting hand on drawing boards and letting opponent bet himself to the felt.

I agree with a lot of this. Every time I have been felted lately it was on a hand that I shoved. I am sure part of that is bad luck in terms of missing draws and running into sets but I am sure there is something that I am missing too.

If you haven't already, check out Professional No-Limit Hold 'em: Volume I. Part 4 of the book deals with planning hands around commitment. I'm on my second read through, and still trying to master the concepts discussed, however it's helped me find optimal planning & sizing for easy decisions as long as I'm clear about what/when I'll stack off with.

I wish I wouldn't of seen the result. You gotta think this guy limped early. Over one limper, he seems very TAG. So hes unlikely to have big pairs as TAGs typically raise those. Hes unlikely to have small and med suited connectors as TAGs don't play those in such EP. So he has a lot of small and med pk pairs, and suited A's. That flop kind of smashes his range. He either has a set or small pair or the poss of nut flush draw. 60 into basically 75, (if Im reading the pot correctly, 4 calls of 15+ your 15 plus sb = 76), is way too big. First off, you have a spr of 3.75:1, so you don't have to bet big to get stacks in by river. Secondly, and in my mind most importantly, for that sized bet, hes gonna fold the hands you might get one street of value from, the 44, 55, 66. Leaving you against the 33,77,88, 99 which you might be able to get stacks in if he takes a stand with it while it might still be good, and nut flush draws which are doing pretty well against you, especially the A3ss. So you are leaving yourself a range of hands that crush you, and that are basically flipping with you, and one hand that you might be able to stack. I think a bet of 35 would allow you to get value from the weak portion of Vs range while leaving options for the turn. But by betting so big on the flop, you get yourself into a sticky spot, that you pretty much have to shove, and as you saw in the hand, wasn't a good place.

It was a bit of a cooler, but I think had you paid attention to preflop ranges a little more closely, you could of found a way out of this hand. But it would of been very tough because you were pretty short, both in absolute stack and SPR



Masta--

I think a check is ok given the likely hood of being behind on this flop. Also given the pretty low SPR we can still get stacks in by the river, so we don't have to bet the flop.

Masta--

I challenge you to change your thoughts on betting. Protection and for information are not reasons to bet. You bet for value, or as a bluff. Sometimes a bet can be a "two way" bet, as you are bluffing against one player, but value betting against another. An example is when you have the nut flush draw you are semi-bluffing to get a player to fold a pair, but value betting to keep a worse FD in. I think if you really focus on this concept, and exactly what hands you are trying to get to call, and what exact hands you are trying to get to fold, you will notice big growths in your game.

Masta--

+1

Do your standard raise plus 1x for each limper. And guys that open limp from UTG, that arnt trappy, are going to be more likely to call. As even pretty bad players will fold the worse parts of their normal playing range super early. So you could even get away with a little bit larger sizing expecting to get one or two callers.

Masta--

I don't like going 5ways to the flop in a raised pot, so I'd raise more that our "standard" in order to accomplish this (although I realize this can be touch and go regarding number of callers we were going to get, but after 2 limpers $15 does seem a little on the small side to me).

SPR is 3.6 on a drawy flop. Not a great result since we are so multiway (which makes setmining against us very easy). But on this drawy board, I think we probably just have to go with our hand. I'd PSB the flop to ship the turn.

On the turn, I'd follow thru with my plan.

GcluelessNLnoobG

grunch. More preflop. $15 would be a good open size, but with 2 limpers, I'm adding a bb for each. Round off to $20 for simplicity sake.


As played, what do you think Vs UTG1 limp/call range is preflop? Does it include all Ax suited. Does it include 9T suited? would he open with 77/88, or limp/call?

V may have sets in his range, but I think most non-passive Vs will raise the flop with a set here. Shoving may fold out a lot of hands that you beat, but given the PSR is about 1, that's fine. Shoving to lock up your equity and get V to fold his equity (which is always at least reasonably significant) is a good thing, even if his range consists mostly of draws (that will fold), or sets (that will call).

on the other hand, If V only has small PPs in his limp/call range and no suited cards, then we are in bad shape when he calls our flop bet, just check back turn and fold to any aggression on the river.