Hero (UTG $400): definitely has a solid/TAG image. V1 knows me and views me as TAG.

V1 (BTN $500): very loose preflop; plays more of a loose passive-ish type play; will call with a ton of hands preflop, but postflop he plays a bit more "standard."

V2 (MP $200): pretty much a weak/passive fish

V3 (HJ $400): seems like a typical rec to me. plays a little tighter than the average rec, but is def no solid TAG/nit.



Hero (JJ) UTG and opens to $16 (pretty standard raise, although the table is a bit loose so I can advocate for raising more from UTG).

V2 calls
V3 calls
V1 3! to $35

Hero?

Do we basically have no other options but to just call and play some postflop? Are we looking to peel flops that have 0 overs, and fold all A-high or K-high flops? His 3! seems to be begging for a call and idk if he does this with AK.

Also, how do you guys tend to protect your UTG opening range to prevent it going multi-way? I've been thinking of making 100% of my UTG range opened to $21 to "protect" it. Thoughts?

Yup. No option but to call and play post-flop unless you want to turn JJ into a bluff.


About your protect it raise. You can just raise bigger and bigger until you find a range to keep the fish in the pot without getting rid of them.

The 3 bet is so small you can easily call if only to set mine, so folding is out of the question. Reraising is more bluff then value but from UTG you can represent QQ+ so if V1 has a fold button in this situation raising occasionally is OK also. Way OOP you will be mostly set mining in this situation but depending on the flop and opponents you can continue is some situations even if you miss.

OOP you mostly want every flop to go heads up. So watching the betting and trying various sizes till you hit the right size that will generally get one caller is the best strategy.

I call to set-mine or to continue on some good flops w/o a jack. Don't see a good reason to turn JJ into a bluff here. Would rather bluff with a hand like Axs, since we block some of his more nutted hands and have decent equity v. KK and QQ if called.

Easy call. You get over 20:1 IO to set mine. I'm not turning JJ into a bluff for such as cheap price to see a flop multi way. I don't think either V2 or V3 have a backraise in their arsenal.

Don't assume because villain is loose preflop that he also has a loose 3! range.

Call with great odds. Even though it will likely go 4-way, the in betweeners seem ez to play against.

As for pre sizing, it is really trial and error. At $2/$3 NL I'd start ~$16-$17 and go from there.

Yeah preflop play seemed pretty standard to me. I feel like I can flat almost my entire UTG opening range here to a min-3bet. Not sure what the bottom of my 4! range is here, just KK?

Are we even just flatting QQ here and playing it similarly to JJ?



As played, H flatted and other 2 villains flat as well.

Flop is Q 9 4r
Hero x/folds after V1 c-bets.

I guess it's standard but just seemed so weak to me.

Depends on the V, you say he's very loose pre-flop. So I'm probably 4b QQ. But, if you think Villain never 3b! AQ/AK/TT type of hands. Definitely just flat.

A lot of people 3b! AK, but don't fold until they see a flop. Same with JJ.

If it's just AKs/JJ+ you have to flat. If it's AKs/TT+, there is legitimate argument to be had for 4b!. If there is any AKo vs a very loose V pre-flop, I'm 4b! almost always unless they nit up vs a 4b and you have merit to believe so,.

why is everyone talking about turning JJ into a bluff? i mean yeah you guys are saying dont do it, but is that even a thing lol??? OP wasnt asking about turning JJ into a bluff (i dont think) he just wanted to confirm 4betting is suicide. yes it is suicide. just give him credit for the hand he's representing (AA) and fold all flops without a jack. its tough to do but unless you know this player is out of line with his 3bets he is going to show you the goods way too often to be commiting chips after the flop. in my experience.

i like a 7bb open live with JJ or QQ. i like a 5 or 6bb open with TT, KK, AA. And I like a 4bb open with AK. obviously i try not to be so predictable and if there are a few limpers i like to raise more. in the 3/5 game i play i can sit there for an hour folding hands and then make it $35 utg with JJ and get 2 callers. also by playing tight and opening larger you can be more confident that a players 3bet represents true strength.

What is this? Talking Stick?

It all depends on how you feel playing OOP against these particular villains. Are any of them willing to stack off against you?

You need to consider at this point what the circumstances need to be for you to go to the felt. Are you gonna put in a ton of chips unimproved?

If you think this is a good spot, better to put the chips in early.

Everyone likes to think they have the odds to set mine.

The problem with playing passively is that he can do this with like 50% of his hands and show a profit.

Learn to play well multi-way, instead. There'll be tons of times when you MUST play multi-way pots to get to the fish.

With these larger stacks at a loose table, I would typically just limp in EP (perhaps to limp/reraise a loose / shortstacker opener).

The 3bet does look like it's begging to be called, so I would probably just call, hope the others come along for the ride, and setmine. No J on the flop, I'm check/folding, otherwise I most likely donk a J.

ETA: Regarding raise sizing preflop, the problem at loose tables in EP is that we have no idea who (the loose guy? the tight guy? the deep guy? the short guy?) is interested in their hand. At loose tables, it almost doesn't matter what you open preflop, you can still easily go very multiway; seriously, there's no different between $15 and $35 if the table is loose and the loose guys have a hand they want to see a flop with. So if all the loose / difficult guys are short (say $200), then just open for $20+ and stack off postflop with an overpair. But if they are a lot deeper, then position is going to have to start playing much more important a role, which is why I'd rather limp in EP (possibly to limp/reraise) and see what's what before building a big pot. In LP, we have a much better idea what is going on (plus will be in position postflop) and can thus size our preflop raise accordingly.

GcluelessNLnoobG

The best way to play multiway is to play in high SPR pots, where we have lottsa of room to decide what to do. Raising to $15 with $400 stacks to go 5ways to a $75 pot with an SPR of 5 flying blind with an overpair gives us little room to move.

GimoG

I agree with flatting but we still have sdv. who min-raises over 3 people with aces? This is probably Ak.

Word. I rarely open 5x from EP at a table that is fairly active, and I don't understand why people do.

In this case, I wasn't there, but my general tendency would be to open for the pot.

@BadlyBeaten interesting.

Your standard play, with your entire UTG range is to raise pot? So from UTG, if you are playing $1/3, you would just min-raise or something?

You can actually win with a min-raising strategy. Sure it wont be optimal but it's actually a winning strategy implemented in certain games.

Some other interesting strategy I've seen, raising smaller in EP because it's going to be our strongest range and raising larger from LP because it's the weakest part of our range. It has merit, but again, I'm going to argue it's not optimal.

That is actually a standard tactic at tough high stakes games when your first in. It's a good strategy when your opponents are thinking about your range and adjusting. By raising less you get more action when your range is strong and raising more in LP makes it more expensive for people to try and play back at your wider LP range.

At 1/2 I often found the reverse was more effective. Raise more in EP to limit the number of callers when I'm OOP and raise less in LP to get more action from the blinds when I have position. At 2/5 I find that opening to $20/$25 with all hands from all position works best.

No, at 1-3, I would pot to 10 (3 + (1+3+3)). With a limper, raise pot would be 13. But I would probably go 16.

I was thinking about this thread and I think I've actually opened for 2.5x, more times than I've opened for 5x, in EP. Which seems stupid but true.