2-3 NL game, UTG+1 has been playing fairly tight, somewhat aggressive post flop, seems to be one of the better players at the table. I've been raising a lot of pots recently and my table image is probably a bit laggish.

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, Hero raises with QQ to $15. Button calls, UTG calls, and UTG+1 reraises to $60. UTG+1 has about $120 behind, I have UTG+1 covered.

Hero to play

I'm pretty new to no-limit, ex limit holdem player. I know that some players will only get in preflop with KK and AA, but I think his range could very well be JJ-AA, AK. I'm thinking it's unlikely he would overlimp with KK preflop.

Is this a push or fold situation? I am giving an average tight 1-2 NL player here too much in range here given my image? Am I over-thinking this, Thoughts?

A lot depends on the table dynamic and what your raise represents based on the previous hands of action. The 3 bet is pot sized, but with so many players in the hand yet to act I would have expected a slightly higher bet to isolate especially given the stack size behind. So this very well could be AA trying to induce another bet out of you or Something even down to 99/AQs.

What is your image? I think if you go over the top then you are turning your hand face up AA-QQ unless they can put you on AK sometimes here. If you think this is AA/KK 'for sure' then go ahead and flat to open up YOUR range a bit. You may even get one more caller to help you with your set mining operation!!

Generally speaking any 3-bet in 1-2 or similar game (smaller than a 'good' 2-5 table) will be a decent pocket pair, AKs or JJ+. Depending on the style of play from your opponent I think this bet is a bit suspect and would probably just flat. GL

I would just fold. He limps in early position, hoping someone bets, you do, and then he 3bets you hoping you call with his Aces.

A 3bet from an EP limper with callers behind from a $1/$2 player screams Aces, or possibly Kings, or maybe AK suited, but this is hardly ever JJ or AQ, so you're at best a coinflip against AK.

After reviewing thousands of hand histories from 1-2 2-3 and 2-5, it is very easy for me to give a blanket call/fold strategy and be very comfortable that it would be +EV for all players concerned.

The strategy would be this. (At least as a good starter kit)

When any routine ordinary player makes a raise or 3 bet (whatever) and puts you to a decision to where you stop and are basically confused as to whether to call (but never re-raise), then simply fold. Big bets are so far 90% (as far as i can tell) the best hand. My assumption is that you feel you are most likely behind however want to call due to the absolute value of your hand, like here ---two queens. Absolute value of hands has no business being in the picture.

Yea ok, many are thinking holy bullcrap---what a load of bull right?

Well, in YOUR recollection, when a routine player makes a large bet on the river and the other player tanks a bit but then calls, how often does the caller win the pot? My poll over 600+ students is that the bettor wins about 90%+. (at low limits)

Thus, "overall" all throughout most hands, this assumption is still very valid when up against mostly non creative--straightforward--ordinary players. Not enough folding is absolutely the number 1 error in most players games i find.

Pure golden stuff ANL- great post.

This is a pretty standard fold spot, UTG+1 is already pot commited. If the normal course of events at your table is someone open raising preflop this is a reliable and profitable line for AA-KK. Villain is only 60bb deep and is almost definitely pot committed, there is no reason for you to get it in here.

My only comment here would be open raising a little larger, it often makes spots like these much more straightforward. With limpers in front I'm opening here for ~19 and then folding to an ep 3 bet granted its not from a total spewtard.

V just about never has worse than KK+ here

120 behind after the 60 or 120 total?

Either way, this is a laughable shove. QQ for about 50bbs

yop, if ANL had said "given all my stats it is never a huge mistake getting it in with QQ for 50bb mathematically", everybody would jump on the get it in train.

What range do you put Villain on here that makes this a shove? I think the assumption everyone has made in this thread is villain is not making a play, we have no reads on him and he is a "tightish agressive" player.

If there is some other information to go off of here, sure, this might be a call and/or shove, but as it stands, you can't just go with "queens can't be that bad".

Maybe at higher limits this changes as a general rule, but this line is almost exclusively KK+ at 2/3 NL in my experience.


Please crush my argument.

We have no reads on him, which is why we go with it. We need reads to assign such an absurdly tight range.

Not arguing, just inquiring since i like about all of your replies.

Any player at 2-3 sitting with 180 fits the description of about the average 1-2 player who will 3 bet AK about 1/2 the time at best (if at all). OP said he thought he was decent, so i dont see him 3 betting TT JJ as I dont see much of this at all actually.

So I have us at about 35% equity. Now since the game is all about ranges, Im assuming you are giving a much wider range. Unfortunately the discussion drops off there since ranges will be each players judgment.

Anyhow, i just wanted to hear a tiny bit more about your perception of this type villains range here.

ANL knows whats up.

punish the limp-reraiser for making such a gay play by folding.
he turned his hand face-up.

I'm just not willing to fold qq for 50bbs with 15bbs in dead money against someone without any read.

This

I lean towards folding here. I wouldn't usually flat though. With his stack its either shove or fold IMO. But i think his line is your typical player trying to trap with AA. You are usually behind and at best a coin flip. I've made the mistake of calling with QQ against the tight player in EP's raise to see him flip KK/AA almost every time. I think ANL's post is spot on and justifies the fold. IF you are gonna play you might as well shove because V's cbet will be a shove anyway.

I play in 3 rooms and could make all 3 moves here ... fold, call or shove. I totally agree we need to put our opponent on a range of hands and would tend to call>shove>fold in most of these cases ... IN MY ROOMS against typical players in these rooms.

What percentage of the time can you get this player off KK when an Ace hits the Flop? This needs to be considered also. Granted we aren't getting much even if we do hit a set here so I might look at the fold option a slightly higher amount of the time. This can also be used as a shove argument as well ... low $ risk shove, right?

I agree 'mostly' that at low limits a bet like this screams strenghth where ever in the hand it takes place, but where I play normally if this was against ANY reg those thoughts are placed to the side more often than not. If there has been a lull in play and a hand like this takes place with 5 or 6 ppl involved, then the likelyhood that its a movce is much higher IMO ... where I play. GL

There is no way that a call in this spot is +EV, so I really can't follow your logic in getting there. Trying to "get him off of KK" also sounds like a really terrible mindset going in to this hand, not to mention AK crushes you if you try to make a play when an A flops... All of that aside, a call here is going to essentially price in the other 2 players in the hand, making it a 4-way pot already bloated up to 80bb. So, call? absolutely not.

Your argument is flawed. We need to assign villain an absurdly wide range for us to want to gii here. By "absurdly wide", I mean anything under KK+, bc with villain's line anything under KK is absurd.

We just got l/rr, at 2/3, with a value sizing. This is AA 90% of the time and KK the other 10% of the time.

If it had been like a spazz jam we might have a discussion here.

Again, it's close either way (in terms of EV over time), but there is no way getting it in here using shortstack justification is the most EV line.

Fold.

This.

Stack sizes matter.

Nobody folds QQ here for 25bb with 15bb in the pot. Everyone folds 200bb with 15bb in the pot.

I'm not folding for 50bb here.

Flat. Maybe some moron behind us calls with his AX.

So you never set mine in a multi-way pot when you actually need 8 to1 or good implied odds to set mine anyway? I do note in my comments that set mining here may not reap too much profit with the stack sizes shown, but it also limits my exposure if I choose to gamble as well. Yes, you can fire back that we shouldnt set mine with so many BB PF. But if we make the decision to gamble, then we do so and then evaluate the next street or decision as it presents itself.

I totally accept your coments up to that point, but I am also refering to play in my rooms as well and only against certain opponents. When I actually get out to a 'strange' room I would adhere closer to ABC poker. When I am playing 80% regs in my room I need to consider these other options as well or I will get run over by players making moves in these spots. GL

+999 I've sigh-called/shoved QQ enough times pre and lost to learn this lesson the hard way. It's just too thin a spot to commit that many bb. Even if you include TT in their range you're only ~52%

everytime I limp reraise at my live casino I have KK or AA , remember he doesent know your folding queens, you could have 45 suited or something.

You are VERY correct with my image/range ... which means you turn your hand face up for me and after I smooth call IP (sometimes) you have no idea where I am at. Depending on stack sizes I can push people (my room, regs) off their AA/KK when I play back at them with certain flops. This certainly is marginal play from a purely EV stand point ... BUT ITS FUN at the 1-2 level!!

It can also create action for me on other hands when I do have AA/KK .. I dont mind giving away $27 PF and fold Flop to get $300 from anther guy 30 minutes later when the action goes the same way PF. GL

Something tells me that you must be running hot....gl