Villain - 20s, drinking beer but not drunk; plays a fair amount on weekends, recognises a few players. Is playing/opening about 40% of hands, slightly weighted towards more in LP and button, and almost none in EP. Standard raise sizing seems to follow the whole 4-5x + 1BB/limper. Had made a triple-barrel value bet with second-best pair on river vs an LP-type opponent, so I'm assuming he is trying to think on at least 2nd level if not 3rd. ($300)

Hero - 20s, very casually dressed, I've been playing fairly tight but chatting it up. I'm pretty sure Villain has only seen me play two hands, both very standard open in LP/cbet good board/all folds type hands, with adjusted bet sizing based on flop wetness. Covers everyone at table.

V2 - tight; not that relevant.

V opens to $10 in MP; V2 calls; Hero is in CO with JJ and 3-bets to $30. Folds to V who calls fairly quickly, V2 folds.

Flop: QdTd8x ($75). V checks.
I tank for ~40s, and throw out $20.
V thinks for ~10s, announces $75.
I think for ~15s, and flat.

Turn: 3x ($225). V shoves fairly quickly.
I am thinking of calling, for the same reason that I threw out $20 in the first place, but I struggle for about 2 minutes because I'm having difficulty trusting my read now. I count out the ~$200 needed to call, about to call, then pull it back. V grins - "is that supposed to scare me?" That sentence tips me over. I ?


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Some explanations on what I was thinking:
Flop: Reason I'm tanking is I'm considering a standard raise on wet board to ~$50, or a smaller bet to induce, as I think he's pretty LAGgy. Note though I haven't seen him re-raise with air yet. The non-standard PF open in MP is very odd and the only times I've seen it in 2/3 so far have been drawing type hands played by aggro players. The question is, would he just call off a $20 bet knowing I just gave him odds to draw? Or try to just push me off thinking he now has fold equity? I decide to induce, and when re-raises I call.

Turn: Is blank. He shoves with his whole range. I'm struggling so much because, well, I'm relatively inexperienced and I'm a rec player myself. When he opens his mouth I think he's trying to represent strength and is actually not; am I wrong?

Preflop raise is too small. hes calling for 20 more all day with every holding so you're bloating the pot and not getting information. He makes it 10, you have a limper: pot is 25 including blinds. You make it 30: pot is 55 and he has to call 20. He's getting nearly 3 to 1 and I'm surprised V2 folded.
I think better sizing here would be to make it 45: that's about a pot sized raise (after including your 10). With 300 eff, it also sets up SPR of about 3 to 1 which should set you up to play for stacks if you get a flop you like.

OTF: I'm 50/50 between checking and betting here but your bet of 20 feels weak. I'm not surprised he raised. And once he does, I think this is a clear fold. You can't beat any Q, you can't beat a set of tens or 8s or J9 and all these hands are in his range given description and preflop action. You are a favorite against AK or a diamond draw but I think you're probably way behind here and it's time to fold. If I bet this flop, I'd bet something like 60 and fold to a raise, or I'd check and take the free card, and then maybe call two streets to induce bluffs and keep the pot small.

I don't like playing for stacks on this board against a thinking opponent. When he shoves, he can beat JJ.

Re: his table talk: he's drinking, you're grinding. You're making moves, he's gambling. He may be amused by you bc maybe he's a 'feel' player and thinks you're a 'math' player. Dunno. I wouldn't read much into this. When I see someone 'making moves' like bluffing in their stacks, I think they are weak. I think his talk is trying to induce a call. But I'd pay less attention to the talk and more to the hand. You're only beating a bluff. And I don't see why he'd bluff you on this board and in this hand. If anything, his talk makes me more inclined to fold.

Your 3bet pre is too small. I like $40-$45 better against this guy. Or just flat in position and play poker.

I like that you're trying to induce spew from V, but this flop is probably not the best spot to do so. It's likely that you're ahead on the flop, but tons of turn cards either kill your hand, or kill your action. I'd like a cbet of $45 or a check back better.

Turn is probably a sigh/fold. You'll get a better spot with this guy if he's 40% VPIP.

Do you have the Jd?

I don't like this play if you think about it for 40s on the flop.

I see these small flop bets all the time. Be honest. I don't understand them. You are giving him proper odds to call with every draw. It looks super weak, so your also inducing aggro players to raise and stack off with 1 pair gutter hands and flush draws.

As played think you have to call. We should be good 30% of time.



I personally would either bet flop 40-50. Or against super loose aggro player. I would check flop to induce bluffs on turn.

Similar situation happened in my game last night. $600 effective.

2 limpers I open to $17 with JJ in CO
BB MAWG 3 bets to $35 (range QQ+, AK)
Limper flats I flat.

$115: 10-9-5 rainbow
BB leads for $20
MP calls
I raise/fold $75
BB tanks folds. MP snap folds.

I raised because his weak bet looked heavely weighted towards AK. Never in my wildest dreams thought he would fold AA or KK (Normaly he wouldn't, but he showed kk). But his poor bet sizing vs a good lag put him in very tough spot. His poor bet sizing put me in great spot. If he flats. I can check back turn. Eval river (folding most likely). I also got to realize fold equity with strong image with a 1/2 pot size bet.

I fold.

Smiling + Talking = Comfortable

Bingo.

He's already pushed all-in. At this point he's either nervous that you'll call or comfortable that he's ahead. You're still thinking, so he knows you weren't trapping with a monster. He's comfortable, and now he's trying to goad you. ...He ain't doing that with A10 or the diamond draw.

Also, don't use the flop underbet on a board this wet. If you're going to underbet, choose a drier board.

Also also, definitely don't tank-underbet the flop with a hand this vulnerable. You're pleading for a raise, while holding a hand that will give you ulcers once you face one.

Thanks for your answers all - looking back on the hand I thought it was not the best play so ran it past a friend and you all as well. Basically after the hand I was thinking that it's very likely he could also be making this a value bet with QJ/Q9/Qother by making it look like he's bluffing, since I looked so ridiculously weak with tank+small bet. I should've just either been raising normal sizing + bigger PF or checking that flop.

I did not have the Jd.

So far in my games, small flop bets against somewhat-aggressive players have yielded massive dividends for me so I continue to use them trapping. e.g. mikko's hand, if I had KK my intention would always be to call all the way down unless there's something more that tips me off towards a set.

I'm a bit split on the talk. If the player thinks I'm a thinking player (which is almost always cause I generally take a long time in decisions and tbh I think I give off a very serious-type vibe) then they usually act and it's often a look-weak-to-get-called/look-strong-to-get-fold; it's when they are doing it unconsciously that I would lean towards a fold. His talk actually tipped me into the call.

Results...

That seems like the absolute bottom of his range. I can't see a weaker hand that he would raise flop and shove turn (maybe Ax diamonds).

If I had played the hand, it would have had a different result. I would have 3-bet bigger pre which probably would have gotten 86s to fold and just got the money that was in the pot pre.

If I raised pre as played, I would have either:

1. Bet the flop larger and folded to Vs inevitable raise (or shove).
2. Checked the flop and called down
3. C/f the flop

Hate your weak bets... JJ on a Q high, why induce a raise on a super wet board with 2nd pair....if u make this same play 100 times on the same type of board I don't think you would come out ahead...

I still don't understand small flop bet here. I am not a believer that you crush with them, because you won this hand.

- your small bet induced a bluff (we have basically a bluff catcher and ****ty draw)

-pot got bloated, putting yourself in bad spot. Where we have to much equity to fold, but very likely could be drawing to chop

-we have to call a flop raise, flipping at best vs his hand. His raising range on this board is ahead of our hand.

-turn we are guessing. It is marginal +EV spot at best

-small flop bet gave our opponents 2 +EV options. He can raise as he is ahead of our range. Or he can flat getting fat odds to call

-if you fold 20% of time on turn. Then his turn shove is +Ev.

Please explain how these small flop bets with marginal hands are +EV. Inducing bluffs with 1 pair hands, almost always puts us in tough spots on super wet boards.

Yeah I agree with you all, I think in this spot I was spewing. As I was thinking through the turn, my thought process was that this shove is very +EV for Villain. I hated my play as well and I would've done things differently, although my alternative play on the flop would've just been a near-PSB.

However small flop bets on relative monsters are not marginal plays at all, at least in my experience. I generally do this with monsters (top-two pair although often just sets+) against all tight players and LAGs. Before this I had never played a pocket pair on this type of board like how I described (and don't think I will again!)

I think KK in the spot you described mikko, is very strong on that board, and I would be 50-50 towards either big betting and small flop bets.Without knowing you, I could guess that I *might* be able to get 2 streets of value with standard 1/2pot betting, but I think you could find a fold on turn; whereas if you re-raise me on flop, I feel like I have a much better chance of getting 2 or even 3 streets.

I don't think his talking is much of a clue to him being weak, if anything I would say it doesn't really mean much... When I play I run my mouth constantly whether I have a hand or not - I just get bored playing live if I am not talking ****

But I would agree that 86dd is definitely the bottom of his range - but still a strong hand (that he was comfortable getting it in with), but with him having a hand like 86, he also has 910, J9, Q10, Q8, Q9 and so on and so forth. I think his range crushes you over time on that flop