MP2 middle age asian guy who looks like a gambler. Has been splashing around in a few pots and folding or taking it down but obviously no real read yet. Has 900 stack

Hero only at the table 10 hands doubled up with kings early on. $660 stack


Hero raises MP with KJ to $16

MP2 tries to make a decent size reraise but string bets and it ends up being a min raise to $29,CO call, BTN call, BB call, Hero call

Pot is $145
Flop is
KJ3

BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, BTN bets $60, BB folds, Hero raises to $140, MP2 calls, BTN folds

Turn is A (Pot $470)
Hero checks, MP2 shoves all in about $500 to call

anyone like betting turn and its hard to put him on a hand

Raise the flop larger.

Turn looks like AA/AK most of the time as played.
Maybe AQss?

KJs is pretty lose for an MP open, imo.

AP, I make the call closing the action too.

Flop raise is WAY too small. Pot is $265 with your call, and you raised to only $80 more.

AP, c/f turn. Everything got there but the FDs. Give yourself a KITN for offering such a good price OTF.

^^KJs is a trivial MP open. If you’re not opening KJs you’re playing way too tight.

This deep, Im doing anything other than what you did on the flop. Im either leading out, just calling his bet, or making a huge check raise.

As played, AK/AA/KK all beat you. Unlikely ha has AJ but it beats you too. Basically you beat nothing that the vast majority of 1/3 players would 3 bet with so I fold the turn.

^^ button cold called pre

Jam flop
Probably fold turn

Agreed

+1

What's with the check min raise. I see this so much and it's so bad. This is a pretty wet flop. I would never go for a check raise here. As played I would make it @275.

Way bigger flop c/r. Make it 200 more to go and intend to shove every turn. You get to the flop with $630 behind and 145 in the pot. When button makes it 60, there's 205 in the pot. If you raise to 260, there's now 465 and you have 370 back. When MP2 calls, we're up to 725, which gives you an SPR of ~0.5 ott. Trivial shove on any card and hope to get hero'd by a flush draw or QT that misses. The A is one of the worst cards in the deck, but that's poker. With the suggested line, you're getting value from all draws that miss the turn and maybe even a stubborn AA or AK.

AP, given the higher SPR and V's line, pretty easy fold given one of the worst cards for your hand and a card that smashes a 3! pre range.

Open KJs exactly 100% of the time or rack up. $200 on flop, fold the worst possible turn card

I folded turn

MP2 showed A T

Button folded AJ on the flop

You only lose to a weird AJ. AA/AK bet the flop >90% of the time as the pfr. I don't think most people read the hh correctly. PFR checking otf and then cold calling the c/r and the guy who bet IP folding. That said, I have no idea what MP has but odds are there are other hands besides AJ in his range...

Yes I did misread the HH and thought the guy who tried to 3 bet preflop was the flop bettor. The guy cold called a flop bet AND flop check raise with AT? Sucks for OP, but that guy is going to give his chips away later anyway.

I initially misread it as well, the guy who is in play on the turn didn't even bet the flop, which takes AA/AK out of the equation completely. Turn is a call ALL DAY given this info, if MP2 was the flop raiser & then jammed turn it becomes a lot more difficult.

This flop is one of the rare moments I'd advocate for leading out on the flop. Too many draws & too many players in the pot to just allow it to check through, although I'd expect MP2 to raise flop a large % of the time.

Why is it a call all day? How many players show up with AT or AQ after they check as preflop raiser and call bet/raise on flop?

You're getting 2:1 on a call, what do you think he has? It's either AJ or a hand that you beat, he's a middle aged asian guy who's been splashing around, you're gonna fold here? KJ is probably the best hand to call with in this spot regardless based on the fact that you block KK/JJ which might oddly play the hand this way.

If you're not calling KJ, you're folding your entire range other than JJ/33, not enough calls there imo against a guy who probably has the guts to make some moves.

Clearly the error here was on the flop x/r sizing. There is $265 in there once you call the $60 so put a PSR on top of that bad Larry and we aren't even having this convo.

I would raise preflop at this table probably exactly never. I mean, look at what happened here, we saw a 3bet go 5 ways! What is the point of raising KJs (a very mediocre hand) at a table like this? I'd sooner limp it, although at raisey tables I'd mostly now just fold it unless in LP.

Now we're in an SPR pot of ~4 where stacks will go in trivially easy. Did someone flop a set? Or are they just on lol TP or draw? Guess we'll find out when stacks go in. I don't mind the flop check given our relative position although it is certainly dangerous. Our flop check/raise is very small, giving good odds to draws. Are we just doing a smaller one to not commit in order to wait to see what MP2 does? His flatting is somewhat concerning, although I'm guessing he probably doesn't do that with better on this board. If I was in this spot I probably would raised enough to setup a turn shove against the Button.

Terrible turn card as AK/AA (and QT) just got there, with the first two being extremely likely hands, and it was possible we were behind on the flop. Unless this guy has spewed big stacks before with lol hands, I check/fold here.

ETA: To those who think the preflop open is standard-and-anything-else-sucks: why? Keeping in mind we just saw a 3bet go 5ways.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I'm not part of "those" (I would raise but don't think it's so bad to call) but the answer is inevitably going to be that we have a lot of equity five ways or even eight ways.

There is a vast difference between Limit and NL in this regards.

In Limit, we'll mostly always be able to realize our equity because we'll often be able to get to the river if we flop any piece. We'll also be able to pound our postflop equity on the flop, typically against multiple opponents. Also, the amount we're getting in preflop with our (perhaps) slight equity edge is for a decent amount of what the overall pot will be in Limit.

In NL, it's different. We often won't be able to realize our equity as we can be bet out of the pot postflop (or even preflop). We often won't be able to pound slight equity advantages on the flop like we can in Limit (cuz any pounding, especially with drawing hands, typically just ends up narrowing the field to HU against the opponent who is crushing us and might not even let us see a river). And finally, the amount that we're getting in preflop with our (perhaps) slight equity edge is very tiny compared to what the end pot will likely be.

Also, in Limit because "it's only one more preflop bet, lol, whatever" we often do get called by hands that we have good equity against multiway. In NL, with the threat of a reraise for any bet size, and for bets that are already significant in size, often raising (especially against competent opponents) limits us to facing hands we don't really want to face. This hand is actually a good example in that a couple of our opponents had much better (and even dominating) hands.

On top of that, when we're second best in NL vs Limit, it's a disaster. In Limit, we lose a few bets at most. In NL, we lose our whole stack. Narrowing the field to perhaps often only dominating hands can be a disaster.

It's one of the more drastic differences between the two games, imo, although admittedly not everyone sees it that way.

GwavesatcalliG

KJs is not a light mp open... & obv never folding to the 3b for that price

as everyone has said you need to size your x/r bigger on the flop and set up a turn jam

turn is kinda gross and i don't really mind folding readless at these stakes vs that large of a jam.

v's line is absolute nonsense and he is a massive whale if he showed up with AdTh here lol

Are others realizing that MP2 checked this flop initially? AA/AK very unlikely from the described type of villain imo.

KJs is an easy open, come on guys you can't just raise with AQ+, 1010+. If you're the guy who just folds KJs pre without raising I would never give you action with any of my holdings other than AA/KK/AK.

You raise it because it keeps your range strong while holding an admittedly mediocre hand. Plenty of villains at llsnl will call your preflop raise with hands that you still dominate despite KJ's reputation as a "dominated hand." Stacks aren't going to end up going in every pot and if you're deep stacked KJ is one that you can usually end up getting away from.

We're worried about getting action at a table where a 3bet just went 5ways?

Is it a good plan to not play against an opponent for a small percentage of our stack preflop when we basically know their hand? (i.e. with regards to you "never giving action against someone who only has TT/AQ+")

Getting called by dominating hands vs dominated hands is fairly table dependent. The tighter the table (with regards to people calling with dominated K/J hands) the closer we come to owning ourselves versus owning someone. FWIW, if someone did fold AJ as claimed, we were the ones being owned preflop here.

Was there a good chance someone would have opened up the pot for us? If so, why do we have to be the ones to do it? How much does life suck if we get 3bet (for a normal amount where wouldn't be able to overcall 3 others)?

Gjustfoodforthought,imoG

You keep saying this like we can somehow predict the future. This is our first orbit at the table. I don't see anywhere where OP mentions seeing a five way three bet pot before we decide to open KJs.