Maybe so and we aren't getting c/r that often but when we are it is easy to get completely owned like we did in this hand. One could argue that you can get called by lots of hands on the turn that would fold to a flop bet. Pot control is a consideration 200bb deep vs Fieri. I'd be comfortable getting ai vs crazy MP so don't mind a bet/call either.

Betting and checking are both fine on flop.

I disagree. The main question for me before betting is "how much does my hand love a raise in this spot with these stacks?" And my answer is, given the equity we have on most runouts (if we keep the pot smaller and we don't improve), we don't like a raise very much because it puts us in a very tough spot and makes the rest of the hand much harder to play which potentially leads to more expensive errors (because as the pot gets bigger, it becomes more important to win it). We could be behind now and we could be way ahead (as we were of V's holding), so the EV of checking goes way up in that spot unless we are HU and IP.

KK on this board is a two street hand max unimproved IMO. And given that we don't necessarily fear a 4th Heart, I like a flop check to avoid the sitch that we gout ourselves in.

How are you guys playing AhAx in this spot?

Yeah this is a good question. I can sort of agree to disagree on whether we should be going for value and betting red kings here. But I would have a really hard time understanding not betting red aces for value here.

checking flop is huge missed value IMO. pot control is hugely overrated at low stakes.

$1000 deep with an unknown villain like this, in position, this is a very easy bet/call OTF. folding is not horribad but it's suuuper nitty. the mentality that if you're folding turn you may as well fold flop is fundamentally flawed. why? because we get to see the turn, mostly!

i'm playing this spot basically the same as AA with a , although further big action could change that. OTF i play both hands the same.

unless you have certain reads, IMO you can't be folding spots like this. the main thing on my mind in this spot is not what am i gonna do on the turn, oh his range crushes me, so much as, the very high likelihood that we stack him for 200bb when a heart comes and he has a non-nut flush. that's the meat of this hand. and also the meat of how you make money in the game.

if we miss turn we can soul read/evaluate/probably fold. i would never regret the extra $120.

i would play it that way even if MP hadn't called our initial bet, but he did, which makes this a total no-brainer flat call the $180.

i really disagree with this. there is fat value to be had here from other single hands. this is the opposite of a WA/WB scenario, particularly because we can draw against most flushes and play for stacks when we hit.

I check flop here at a high frequency. We probably dont get 3 streets of value except against a whale, protects our checking range, and checking keeps ranges wide/induces bluffs. I didnt even read the HH/reads/thread but flop check is super standard imo.

It’s surely a bet but what I really wanted to ask is how far are you going with it when you face a c/r?

I’m not sure how you’re assuming that you’re going to STACK HIM FOR 200BB when a fourth heart falls. That’s just not happening a huge % of the time. Also, when a fourth heart falls and he continues putting in money into the pot when you’re holding KhKx, I think the likelihood of YOU getting stacked for 200BB is higher.

^ guess it depends on the game conditions you play in. i see fat value. ofc we're not always getting stacks in, or getting them in good, but often enough that i'm not folding to the x/r

I think a lot of this debate comes down to Heros image. If you have an active LAG image it probably makes sense to be betting flop and looking for value here. If you have a tighter image and are not going to be called down light maybe you are trying to get to showdown somewhat cheaply.

It seems like there are good players on both sides of the aisle in this debate so perhaps we are inserting our own image into the equation and those who are looser are seeing a lot of value here whereas those who are tighter see it differently.

i actually think that is almost a non-factor. SB just sat down, and frankly i don't spend much time thinking about image at these stakes unless something crazy is going on, like i've been absolutely running over the table or something. most villains just don't care about your image next to the two cards in front of them.

this is true

I’m playing the hand the same way, and I’m folding to the check raise. I think the value range here is sets and made flushes, and the bluff range contains the A or hearts. So all in all we don’t have good equity vs this range.
As per Flop bet size, I like the 2/3 pot on a mono tone 3 ways. If it’s heads up I prefer the smaller sizing of ~1/3 pot.
The thing is we’re so far ahead of calling ranges here that it’s a mandatory bet on the flop. And I think it’s pretty easy to play against the c/r.. just fold.


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I cant find a fold here with the Kh. If you didnt have Kh id probably be considering 3 bet or fold options, but I cant reasonably argue for 3 betting because you dont need to protect agains the 4th heart, and I cant reasonably argue for folding because you have the 2nd nut flush draw. I think if the guy looks passive, id fold, but you said 50s, bought in for 1k, i feel like he can mix it up.

I think im sorta flying blind as far as a plan ott. heart and he fires? maybe he had bare Ah or the nuts? I mean i doubt he is stone cold bluffing a 4th heart... and why would he bet something like a set into a 4th heart? I think the only clear easy turns are Ah, K, (gii) or facing a bet after Q/J/T hits (fold), youre just hoping he checks.

I think this hand you should be relying on live reads as well.

Edit: reading thru comments, I think checking the flop makes a lot of sense. Turn brick you can get value out of a pair easier, and if turn brings a heart, a low heart can call off a street maybe two, if SB comes out firing ott you can just call it off instead of being in this situation. Only real sad turn card would be the 3 non heart aces,

+1000

Which single hands (other than Q and J) are we getting "fat" value from on this flop that we won't also get value from on pretty much any turn? I am not totally against a bet a certain % of the time (maybe say 30% depending on table dynamics, Hero's image, V's CR tendencies, etc.), but that bet MUST be small so we aren't faced with folding. If we were HU then I think a bet is much more appropriate. But multi-way, I think red Kings on this flop are a two street hand unimproved and given that we don't really fear a heart on the turn, I think it is better to get our two streets on the turn/river.

BTW, if I held AAx, then I would bet with a higher frequency than 30% but still not all the time.

^^ Good thoughts shorn. I hope you'd bet AhAx 80%+.

Hmmm. 80%+ might be a little high, but at least 65% for sure. Really depends more on V's and my image. With suspicious V's who think I am FOS, then the % goes up. With nitty V's I think I still wait to realize my value on turn/river more often as a check looks like I am a'scared of that flop.

My understanding is that on monotone flops, most hands miss. This highly incentivizes us to be betting, as the first player to bet at a monotone flop will usually win the pot.

Furthermore, since most hands miss we can bet a small sizing and still generate lots of folds. (Most players don’t play back at u with air).

So I find myself c-bet bluffing a very high frequency on monotone flops, thus for balance I like to also bet my strong hands at a high frequency.

I would bet this flop with AAhx and KKhx near 100%


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our disagreement hinges on this. how are you going to get river value from x when turn and river are non-? you've now made your overpair plus second nut flush draw into a one-street hand. and if both we and one of the villains ends up having a flush, we've missed an opportunity to build the pot earlier and play for stacks by the river.

the key difference between betting flop vs betting turn is that on the flop, believe it or not, the turn has not yet come. the place to start dialing in value is OTF. if flop checks through and a brick turns, single- holdings now have much less reason to call a bet with only one street remaining.