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04-22-2014 , 02:43 PM
#1
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Hero tag young asian $1200
Villian fishy young asian $1200

2-3-5
Utg ($500) raises $20
Villian calls mp
Hero calls otb with AJss

Flop $60
Jx 5s 3s
Utg check
Villian leads $60

We have flopped a huge hand, but we also likely have the best hand. Raising is pronably going to blow out worse jacks, and only get action from the top of his range which we are flippiing against. Yet we have such a monster. Is it best to flat the $60 here or raise and pump up the pot with so much equity?
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04-22-2014 , 02:57 PM
#2
rongeremy
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Obviously villain is leading with J10 minimum... Personally, I have a hand that I can confidently shove money into the pot regardless of what villain has.. However, If you flat call.. A spade will most likely kill your action as you have the best spades covered(unless KQs will lead flop) and any unsuited J10, JQ, JK will most likely shut down after getting called on the flop.

I vote for a raise to $150 and pray UTG raises or villain raises.. Then I'd flat and jam turn.
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04-22-2014 , 02:59 PM
#3
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I think flatting here is the best play because you give up very little information about your hand. A flop raise can kill your action if he is cbetting w/ air and can also cause him to 4bet his over pair which would force you to flip because you're never folding. I think flat and evaluate turn is best here.
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04-22-2014 , 03:00 PM
#4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongeremy
Obviously villain is leading with J10 minimum... Personally, I have a hand that I can confidently shove money into the pot regardless of what villain has.. However, If you flat call.. A spade will most likely kill your action as you have the best spades covered(unless KQs will lead flop) and any unsuited J10, JQ, JK will most likely shut down after getting called on the flop.

I vote for a raise to $150 and pray UTG raises or villain raises.. Then I'd flat and jam turn.
V can be leading flop with worse than JT.
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04-22-2014 , 03:01 PM
#5
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I like a raise here with multiple people in the pot. I'm conflicted on the flop raise size though, not sure if I like 140-150 or 180-200.
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04-22-2014 , 03:01 PM
#6
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Usually I'm raising to get value from FDs and Jx, but the pot sized bet has me a bit wary. Any reads on what that means? Seems polarized readless.
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04-22-2014 , 03:04 PM
#7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen
V can be leading flop with worse than JT.
Like a J8? LOL Okay so assuming he a weak J or nothing at all.. I dont see how we are getting any more money from him unless a two-pair hits for him in which we are beat. But you're absolutely right..

If we feel like we are way ahead of his weak J.. we should tank call and reraise OTT as a bluff.. Agreed beauvanlaanen?

EDIT: Betting 60 into a 60 pot also screams JQ+
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04-22-2014 , 03:09 PM
#8
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V is not b/f $60. If he had a jack he was worried about, he wouldn't pot it, imo.
Utg is folding anyway.

Raise to $180.
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04-22-2014 , 03:15 PM
#9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValueMiss
I think flatting here is the best play because you give up very little information about your hand. A flop raise can kill your action if he is cbetting w/ air and can also cause him to 4bet his over pair which would force you to flip because you're never folding. I think flat and evaluate turn is best here.
V wasn't the pre flop aggressor, UTG was. I think this pot sized bet from V is almost never air or a hand he would fold to a raise. I think if we raise right now we will almost get called in at least one spot.
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04-22-2014 , 03:16 PM
#10
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Flat to keep in worse top pairs and worse FDs. If you think he'll call with either of those then raise
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04-22-2014 , 03:17 PM
#11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongeremy
Like a J8? LOL Okay so assuming he a weak J or nothing at all.. I dont see how we are getting any more money from him unless a two-pair hits for him in which we are beat. But you're absolutely right..

If we feel like we are way ahead of his weak J.. we should tank call and reraise OTT as a bluff.. Agreed beauvanlaanen?

EDIT: Betting 60 into a 60 pot also screams JQ+
What? Why are we raising on the turn as a bluff? V isn't betting pot on the flop and folding to a raise.

I also think V can be leading weird straight draws and flush draws. Sometimes recreational players lead 66-TT here too.
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04-22-2014 , 03:18 PM
#12
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I like a reraise to $140-180. If he shoves snap it off. I don't think V is ever betting the pot and then folding to a reraise.

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04-22-2014 , 03:28 PM
#13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen
What? Why are we raising on the turn as a bluff? V isn't betting pot on the flop and folding to a raise.

I also think V can be leading weird straight draws and flush draws. Sometimes recreational players lead 66-TT here too.
Meant to say raise on the turn AS IF hero is bluffing(ie:bare flush draw) aka 3.5-4x villain's turn bet.
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04-22-2014 , 03:32 PM
#14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongeremy
Meant to say raise on the turn AS IF hero is bluffing(ie:bare flush draw) aka 3.5-4x villain's turn bet.
If V does have J8-KJ and we just call flop and the turn is a spade and V bets then we raise he can fold his top pair. It's much harder for him to fold top pair otf to a raise.

I think we get the most value by raising flop.
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04-22-2014 , 03:42 PM
#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen
If V does have J8-KJ and we just call flop and the turn is a spade and V bets then we raise he can fold his top pair. It's much harder for him to fold top pair otf to a raise.

I think we get the most value by raising flop.
Yes, I completely agree that any villain, donkey or not, is not b/f when he bet the pot... Now the question is... What is the optimal line if we reraise to $170.. and he clicks it back for $400.. Do we insta-ship knowing he has a set/two-pair??

What if he just cold-calls $170 and checks on a non-flush card?
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04-22-2014 , 04:35 PM
#16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongeremy
Yes, I completely agree that any villain, donkey or not, is not b/f when he bet the pot... Now the question is... What is the optimal line if we reraise to $170.. and he clicks it back for $400.. Do we insta-ship knowing he has a set/two-pair??

What if he just cold-calls $170 and checks on a non-flush card?
ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
71,280 trials (Exhaustive)
board: j53
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
asjs49.31% 35,1450
53, 55, 33, qq, 2s4s, 4s6s, 6s7s50.69% 36,1350

Without a good read on the villain I'm shoveling money in on the flop. If he 3bets, I ship.
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04-22-2014 , 04:52 PM
#17
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Raise to 150/ pray he 3bets you

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04-22-2014 , 04:54 PM
#18
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If v wasn't described as fishy I'd like a call. As it is, I'm raising this every time bc I don't think he's folding qj-kj or any flush draw to a normal sized raise. Think I like 175 here, but 200 might be better.
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04-22-2014 , 05:25 PM
#19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinEvryRacex
ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
71,280 trials (Exhaustive)
board: j53
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
asjs49.31% 35,1450
53, 55, 33, qq, 2s4s, 4s6s, 6s7s50.69% 36,1350

Without a good read on the villain I'm shoveling money in on the flop. If he 3bets, I ship.
Minor edit.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
53,460 trials (Exhaustive)
board: j53
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
asjs48.47% 25,9110
5x3x, 55, 33, qq, 2s4s, 4s6s, 6s7s51.53% 27,5490
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04-22-2014 , 05:59 PM
#20
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Flat because the best case scenario is keeping the pot multi-way (we want UTG to call too).
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04-22-2014 , 06:07 PM
#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaYu
Flat because the best case scenario is keeping the pot multi-way (we want UTG to call too).
What do you think UTG c/overcalls?
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04-22-2014 , 10:43 PM
#22
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If you're confident in your read then the right decision is pretty clear.
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