Was involved in the craziest 1/3 pot on my visit to Vegas last week. Was playing at the Wynn/Encore--not sure why Bravo states its at the Wynn but its actually the Encore.

Hero: At this location you can buy in for 500, so it plays fairly deep as is. I was playing for about 5+ hours, pretty aggressive as is my style in many situations, was tossing out some oversize value bets on rivers. Caught bluffing a couple times.

Villain1 : ABC pretty standard, Lost a 3 way pot with JQ after calling 2 all-ins on a QQA10J board vs AQ and a Royal Flush! Next hand he got AA vs KK to start building up his stack.
I ended up folding KK on flop earlier after i 3-bet him to 100 and he 4 bet to 400 preflop. He went all in on flop.. I asked him if he had aces he said yes, i folded and he showed. Aces twice within 3 hands.

Vilain2: Had the Royal flush in aforementioned hand.

Hero: 1890
Villain 1: 1800
Villain 2: 900

OTTH:

My pre-flop action memory is a little fuzzy, but Villain 2 was in middle postion, Villain1 on cut-off, Hero on button.

Somehow, not sure whether from an early raise and 3 bet from villain2, or limp reraise. But Villain2 ended up making it 70-75$ preflop, Villain1 called, and Hero calls with 44.

Flop(225) Q410 rainbow.

Villain2 bets 120, Villain1 raises to 300, Hero calls, Villain2 tank folds.

turn(945) 10

Villain1 bets 500, Hero calls.

river(1945) J

Villain1 checks... Hero? about $850ish left effectively.


On the turn I did try and engage in some conversation saying "sick do you have aces again?" He replied "no" pretty quickly.

Yeah I'm confused.

I can't really help you here because firstly who are you HU on the river with? Villain 1?

Secondly I can't range V1 because I don't know what his preflop action was. All I know is that he seems to like this flop because he raised, and he bet undeterred on the turn T

Secondly I don't think V1 would ever check this river card with a strong hand. It looks like something that helped you and all the big value he's repping (QT/TT/QQ). I think your best play here is to jam and rep that you have KJ as a bluff.

I'm honestly jamming this flop in real time because I think a call looks too strong. Is this wrong?

Definitely jam river.

Sorry about that. mixed up the villain numbers, I edited it and hopefully its easier to follow.

I am up against villain 1, and like I mentioned memory is fuzzy but either villain 1 put in a raise and villain 2 limp re-raised.

Or there was a early position raise and villain 2 3-bet to 75, and villain 1 called.

I think the latter is the more likely scenario, I don't really re-call calling a raise then a 3 bet, but its possible.

Either way I think villain 1's range consists of high premium pairs and high broadways. Don't think this particular player has many suited connectors.

Ya cold calling a 3 bet with 44 is pretty questionable if that's what you did. You have no promise that a 4 bet isn't coming (and v an EP open it very well could be), and you may not see the IO you think as overpairs are unlikely to go bet bet bet in this huge pots.

But ya just shove. Like there's 1/2 a pot left. If he had QQ/TT he'd never risk you checking down a hand like AQ. If he himself has KJs, he's not calling any bet you make on the river. Any other size is a pretty huge mistake here since it leaves value on the table when he has silliness like AK that just made broadway.

We should absolutely be 3 betting flop.

I think I'm okay with preflop and flop, but I would rather jam turn than call. The exact preflop action matters a bit, like if there's an EP opener who can reopen the action with a 4-bet I don't love the call preflop, I think I would probably be QQ+ and AK only if that's the case.

If V has a hand like KJs with a flush draw (not sure if BDFD started coming in or not), then they'd feel priced in and call, even though they're dead. If V has a hand like Tx, you'll never know which rivers besides Qs and Ts that are bad for you, and some rivers may kill your action (like 9s and As).

As played, shove river, I don't think V risks a check-through with a better hand, and you almost certainly would've called if V shoved, so not shoving yourself seems like an issue. Not sure what V will show up with, I think a variety of KQ/AQ/KK/AA are possible (even with the table talk).

I really feel like this players range was very capped after the flop raise, he has been playing very ABC and not getting out of line, I really feel like his range was QQ, 1010, KK, maybe AQ.

I want to take KQ,KJ out of his range 99% of the time because hes the type of player to just call with these hands after clear strong betting from v2. (yea live reads.. blah blah blah.. it exists trust me)

In a previous hand he just called with QJ on QhQAh 3x board on flop and turn after facing bets. Playing very few hands. He finally hesitantly cold called after a J hit river and a big bet and a call. v2 just called with the Royal to induce a call from him.

That being said I don't feel like there is any reason to 3 bet flop, I'm close to dead against over sets, and I'm not too in danger against KK or AQ.

The more I think about it the more I think I closed the action with my call. I cant imagine calling with 44 otherwise. This means middle position limp re-raised, which makes both their ranges even more capped I believe. Specially against 1/3 ABC players. Being super deep I felt hitting a set against very capped ranges could be super profitable, and easy to play in position.

You're REALLY glossing over preflop. Preflop matters.

V1 sounds like he could be a smart player who understands that QJ isn't the nuts when someone with a strong preflop range is betting heavily.

If his range is QQ, TT, KK, AQ, that's all the more reason to put a 3 bet in now. You're ahead of that. So what is this call attempting to do? Not get stacked by QQ/TT? You're getting stacked if he has that, it's inevitable.

Also you'd never play a strong draw like KJs w/ BDFD in this manner.

Plus jamming is just slightly over pot. It's a huge absolute bet for the stakes but only slightly big given the pot size here.

Another option is to make it 600 and call off, or jam all in if called.

I hardly ever get to play this deep but I'm pretty shocked that everybody seems stoked to just pile it all in here.

The somewhat passive/cautious ABC guy flatted a 3b, then did everything in his power to build the pot on flop/turn, and coyly checks the river over to this guy "was tossing out some oversize value bets on rivers. Caught bluffing a couple times."

If this guy has KJs he also has Q10s, besides which I doubt he's going bananas with KJ.

I'd be checking back river and expecting to lose

please format your hands with T in lieu of 10 going forward

QQA10J vs QQATJ

Q410 vs Q4T

makes a world of difference, and besides, using T is standard notation

cold calling a 3bet pre is not wise - it's what leads to situations like this where you hit the flop of a lifetime but are still worried you are behind so you nit it up

I'm jamming river unless you have a good read on him and think he would check back a better boat - just because they had good hands before doesn't mean they will always have good hands

Fold pre.

AP raise flop. We absolutely don’t want to go against 2Vs to the turn here. Fortunately the V2 folds.

Jam turn. What river overcard do we want to see here? If it’s set over set we’re always getting felted. AP jamming river but not terribly confident about it.

I cannot endorse Hero’s overall line here unfortunately.

Possibly, cut my losses vs another set, if he has KK and I raise here hes probably hero folding. What else am i shoving 600 blinds in with. This is a very awkward deep situation. Should you always go bust in a set vs set situation with 600bigs? I think that would be a mistake in the long run. Even at these stakes many people aren't piling that much in with an over pair.

Like I said playing for 5 hours with this guy he has been ABC tight, playing few hands hes not just going nutz with draws here.

what made this even harder is the Ten on the turn, that most certainly removes 10's from his range as he leads out big again. Now I am almost certain its QQ or KK. That begs the question on the river do I try and get value from the combination of Kings for another almost 300 bigs, when he knows im capable of putting out big bets for value/bluff. The pot is already 600+bigs. Be content there and take whats in the middle even if i have him. Would he even call all in with less than a better boat?

Why did you call preflop then? You cold called a 3 bet. You hit a dream flop. Now you’re afraid he folds an overpair? You can’t have it both ways.


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Meh, were deep enough and i'm in position that I am confident playing this and hardly ever get in trouble, with a lot of profitability potential against capped ranges. I am certain I closed the action also now thinking it through, so that is also a plus. That would mean V1 probably made it like 20 after a limp Hero called and V2 limpe raised to 70, v1 called, it was now 50 into 140.

I called expecting exactly this situation, but realize how deep we are. I didn't expect to build a huge pot by calling off aggression, I expected to be leading the action in a pot this big. This guys OMC'ish play style has to put some fear in me this deep after raising the preflop bettor. The question is begged, when your almost 50/50 sure your up against another set, what do you do. Even more sick that he is probably only scared of quads or setting me up to bomb the river for this deep. Obviosly if we were 100-300 bigs deep its an easy blast off. But at what point do you start drawing the line against a tight player to not blow an absurd amount of blinds into a pot.

Well I don't know because I'd never be in this situation (assuming V1 is the 3 bettor and not calling a LRR) If the latter situation, I understand the apprehension (and FWIW no matter what the scenario I agree with just calling turn with bottom boat).

The hand was huge before the flop and things have changed after the flop. And now we've been given the piece of information that despite the pot being 2k and just 1k behind, villain does not go all in on his own volition on this river card. Yes, OMC's and tight passives make ridiculous checks, but are you sincerely afraid he has QT and is afraid that you got there w/ JJ? Why would he ever check a hand that beats 44 in this scenario?

But really if you don't like this spot, fold pre. It's that simple. Stop trying to hit things to play for big pots, and then not try to play a big pot.

Yes I thought it was possible he was checking QQ hoping I blast off for the rest. And I agree that if i'm not willing to stack off with what im sitting with, then get out. I was planning on calling off on turn and river, but the check is what threw me for a loop, he is either doing it cuz he wants me to blast off light, or he is genuinely scared of quads or something.

I did Jam the river for the record.

Result:

As others have said, preflop matters a lot here. You aren't anywhere deep enough to call $75 cold with V2 @ $950 total with 44. Sure it worked out that you actually played the big pot with V1, but you can't count on that.

AP, I think I check behind on the river. V1 can see that you have about 1/2 PSB so his check seems trappy to me. He didn't blink when the board paired on the turn and he bet 166 blinds. I doubt he would have done that after you cold called $300 OTF with AA or KK. So I just don't see your shove getting better to fold or worse to call.

Yup, makes sense other than his slow roll. Like he was actually going to fold QQ?

What a dream you got to showdown river at no cost. I just saw results and you shoved. That's pretty bad. Standard check back. Turn might be a fold depending on dynamic.

Too much results orientation. If he really is this nitty, the problems occurred way before the river jam


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