$1/2

V1 - EP ($400) 30's white guy. Been opening a lot and 3b'ing a lot. Standard LAG play, but is not at all maniacal.

V2 - BTN ($280) late 20's white guy. Seem ABCish shaded toward the tight side. Haven't seen him do anything at all in 90 minutes.

H - MP ($350) super awesome dude. Probably viewed as LAG is V's are watching, really playing more a mix of loose-passive and LAG.

V1 raises to $12, limps to H w/ 10's who raises to $36. Folds to V2 who makes it $105 ($175 behind). V1 folds. H? $69 to call into a $151 pot w/ $175 effective behind. V2 surely is on a fairly nutty range after a cold 4b for 40% of his stack. Could be an AKs or maybe an AQs but I think it's heavily KK+. I can't see at all that calling makes sense because there are very few good flops for my hand. I can absolutely see 5b'ing AI with the stack sizes here but with V2 showing no aggression at all thus far in the session that seems pretty spewy. So I guess that leaves me with a fold? Folding T's seems pretty exploitable but it may be the best play available.

Is anyone else just flatting the $12 pre or is flatting stupid?

Is anyone calling the cold 4b?

Is anyone 5b jamming?

In my past I would have flatted the $12 pre w/ 10's and played passively. I've been working to be more aggressive and this is an example of a hand I'm playing differently today than I would have ~2 years ago.

Thanks.

This is a snap-fold AP. It is never a flat or a shove vs. described V.

As for the 3-bet in the first place, I don't see a lot of value in it unless you are looking to ISO V1. EP open ranges are usually pretty strong.

its fine, to 3 bet, flatting is fine too.

vs someone who opens a lot 3 betting with 10s has to be the right play

correct fold to the cold 4 bet, if he has a bluffing range here just got to tip your cap.

only way i am calling off 10s or below for 100 bb+ is if there is a fairly significant chance the guy is just gambling or steaming. even then, might want to let the 10s go occasionally

I can 3-bet occasionally and flat occasionally.

Advantages to flatting: probably a better payout when we hit a set.

Disadvantages: setmining with this strong of a hand kind sucks. We are guessing on low flops like 852.

Mix it up depending on villain.


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Three bet fold is okay I’m my opinion. Never jamming. Never cold calling the 4 bet pre from a tight player

Appreciate it fella's, that's about what I was thinking. Just wanted to make sure I was on track.

Don't like 3b against a guy who is aggressive pre because we're opening ourselves up to get owned pre if we're folding to 4bs (which I agree we have to). I don't really see the big upside to threebetting that compensates for this, if he calls pre it's a fine spot but it's not going to be amazing post vs an aggressive player, we're going to end up playing guessing games a lot. If the idea is just for him to fold pre then I'd rather open up our 3 range with something that has blockers and that isn't flushing a pile of equity when we end up folding pre. TT is too valuable a hand to see a flop with, sets are solid gold.

Pre is fine vs LAGs, most players and even LAGs dont 4b wide enough for value or for bluffs.

Ap snap snap snap fold

I believe 3betting this vs an aggressive player is great unless you think he spews post and want to set mine with your hand, given stacks are right.

I say 3betting is good because if he is aggro EP then your hand does well against his range, you steal initiative, and will know where your at better than if you just called and tried to play your hand post (opposed to set mining).

Just don’t try to set mine this hand preflop and then try to play with it post because it can get you into tough situations on most boards imo.



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Nobody wants to consider calling the 4! ? It’s 69 to win 151+175+175 (assuming we always stack him if we hit a set, which seems reasonable), which is about 7:1. Sure it’s not a slam dunk call and folding can’t be terrible, but it seems like it’s close. Anyone want to tell me why I’m wrong?


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I like that you assume stacks are getting in. We’d be getting 5.7-1 when you consider the 151 + 350/69. This still isn’t enough to warrant us set mining.

We are almost never beating another set, only losing when our opponents have a higher set. Also if we hit our set and opponent has AK, he has straight outs.

Best play is to fold given stacks.


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Equity Needed = 69/(156+69) = 69/225 = 30%

Versus KK+ you only have 20%

You have 40% EQ versus KK+ AK

You are a little short versus just KK+ and AKs 27%.

So the question becomes a fundamental one. How tightly can we range villain? In my opinion the vast majority of live low limit players, range villains way too tightly. This is something I’m guilty of as well, but playing more online the last year has helped me with this somewhat, and I’m hopefully getting better at it.

In my opinion it is a rare villain that preflop you can narrow his/her range with a very high degree of confidence to 12 combos (or 18 if you give them QQ+)which is what the “snap folders” are doing.

I don’t believe this description contains enough information to deviate from standard play:

V2 - BTN ($280) late 20's white guy. Seem ABCish shaded toward the tight side. Haven't seen him do anything at all in 90 minutes.

My standard play here is to fold frequently here, but more as a risk reduction play, than an EV maximizing play. In fact, I think a call is probably slight plus EV versus most late 20’s year old white guys, but will be very swing and you can easily lose your stack several times in a row doing it.

The key question that has been addressed yet, and the one that will make a difference for me when deciding to call/fold is how does V play post flop when checked too. After only 90 minutes you won’t have a solid read but I would try and incorporate as much information as possible. How has he played AK or AQ on a miss? Have you seen him check back A high? Have you seen him check back an overpair? How often is he c-betting flop? How has he played in low SPR pots? These are things that would push me towards a decision. The most important being how frequently is he c-betting. If he is a high percentage c-bettor, I’m more likely to call here and check/call or check/raise on any board without an A, or K.

In summary, I think either a call or a fold here is probably OK except against specific villains. I do think you need a plan if you call since it’s likely a single decision point on either the flop or turn.

I would also add a couple things:
1. I am going to call here versus a lot more villians, if I’m in posistion instead of out, say if V2 is in the blinds.

2. Versus RFI, I prefer a call with TT versus a LAG. I want to take a lot of flops in position versus LAG’s and call LOTS of C-bets, and I don’t want to bloat the pot.

3. Playing in these types of 4 bet situations versus OOP LAG’s really have helped my game. Historically, I was often the player RFI’ing or 3-betting and was having fits playing OOP versus 4-bets, and found I want allowing my opponents a lot of opportunity to play perfectly versus me. As a result, I’ve strarted making this play, 4 betting cold like this versus LAG’s in front, very profitable but swingy.

It's a cold 4-bet in LLSNL, not a R/4-bet online. This is KK+ 90% of the time from an ABC player with no history, and I don't think I'm being the least bit hyperbolic.

+1

I play with a number of guys who would cold 4b me light here but they are known players and they know how loose I open. This guy seemed ABC and ABC guy here is super strong.

To the questions in opening myself up to a 4b, if V1 had 4b i’d Have shoved over the top, beating him into the pot. V1 could both 4b light and then call a 5b light getting the right odds.

I suspect you have a leak in your game, but i doubt I can convince you of that.

Alternatively, you could be correct and you should be cold 4-bet bluffing relatively often. Maybe, as much as 5 bluffs for every value.

I suspect that you tend to play in games where people range their Vs and fold when they think they are behind their V's range. This is not the case against LLSNL randos in most games in the country.

Just because I know that a cold 4-bet from a rando is KK+ 90% of the time doesn't mean that any other players at that table know it, and even if they did, it doesn't mean that they are disciplined enough to lay down any hand they liked enough to 3-bet it. If I were cold 4-betting these guys, I suspect the most common reaction I'd get would be something like "Really? Damn! Well, I don't see how I can fold this hand... You got me don't you? <heavy sigh> I call."

Flat the original open, AP snap fold

Wait this guy's NOT a maniac? That's quite an EP 4b/c range.

AP easy, easy fold. No tight rando at 1/2 is cold 4betting light to exploit us overfolding our 3b range ever.

This is an easy flat primarily to setmine. You overrep the strength of your hand by 3! an EP open, putting yourself into a predicament when (as here) someone with position 4! you. By flatting you can still call a 3! if the original raiser calls as well since you are deep with him. AP, you are most likely a huge dog and obviously not deep enough to setmine, so fold.

This is bad rational IMHO.

As I said before I’d flat pre so I agree there but you are not over replying. You are ahead of most EP RFI ranges.

Call to exploit, not to set mine. Your going to win unimproved here a lot versus EP.

With a 4bet from V2 on the Button, and his image, TT hits the muck. I would say his range is JJ+, if not QQ+. Is he really going to 4 bet with AKs where you would be a slight favorite? I doubt it given his image...

I don't post here a lot but I play a lot of llsnl and have seen this situation hundreds of times. I think your own assessment of the situation in OP was the best answer to your problem.

Anything else is talking oneself into gambling by projecting a 2+2er's thought process onto a standard schmo. (Is it still called FPS?) You're not deep enough to setmine, either. Let go of the $36 and pick a better spot, IMO. MAYBE you can start thinking about what to do in this spot at 2/5, 5/5, and DEFINITELY at 5/T; but this is 1/2 and you should be snapfolding here.

"Folding T's seems pretty exploitable..." Really? By whom will you be exploited? You have about a .01% chance of being exploited in this session if you fold TT here every time, esp. given reads.

Being exploitable and being exploited are obviously different. To be exploited requires a willing partner. Fully agree that folding T’s here to a cold 4b will never actually be exploited at a standard $1/2 game.

I like the 3! and prob call in game but fold is prob correct,..against a tighter player (8-9%RFI at 6xBB), this is a snap fold and close between call and 3! the first time around, but since the guy is laggy and might open 16-17% RFI from EP, I like the 3! for value. Obv getting cold 4 is bad, and again folding is fine, but calling some times here is def +EV. Using a range of AA,KK, a third of the combos of AKo and half the combos of AKs (it also had less than a combo (7%) of QQ) Hold em resources calculator still calls a third of the time with TT (it also lists the call as +EV). IMHO having a low SPR on the flop helps us with TT as we realize more of the equity of our hand as we can go with our hand on non-A/K high flops (we also have AxKx in our range pre- so we can have a few lead bluffs on low boards... Its not like this is a huge +EV move vs V's above range we only have 30% equity on most flops so pretty much we're going to have a tiny +EV play on the whole...

It's prob not necessary to increase your variance like this at 1/2 but it's something to think about if you are going to play higher eventually and don't want to turn down neutral ev spots to enhance your overall strategy.

Also interesting to me is how HRC has the original raisers strat, I put your 3-bet range as 99+, AxKx and AxQy and I set EP raisers range at 17%, and the 4-bet range as the above (AA,KK)@100,(QQ)@7,(AxKx)@50,(AxKy)@33.
It has EP only calling 10% of its KK and that's it
It's jam range is AA and 10% Ax5x...