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Old 09-02-2016, 08:21 AM   #1
WiWaise
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107ss deep 1/2

Villain: Relatively solid. But did see him making weird value bets and dumb payoffs in earlier sessions. He is 400 Euros deep, we have him covered.

HJ limps, Villain raises 10 in the Co.
We call 107ss on the bu. 3bets fine too I guess. But BB and HJ are both bad.

HJ folds. Flop is K55ss, He bets half pot, we call.

Turn 10, he bets close over half pot, we call.

River 8 off. He bombs for close pot. Hero

The interesting thing is that he made a herocall the hand before to a triple barrel with 2nd pair and mentioned that villain can't have much value hands here that he is triple barreling. So he is probably aware that he is pretty polarized here.

I doubt he even bets KQ that size. So AK, AA, KK, K10 and a random 5.

I think he cbets a very high frequency on that board and probably continues most oesds and gutters + every fd on the turn.

Last edited by WiWaise; 09-02-2016 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 09-02-2016, 08:55 AM   #2
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

Raise > Fold > Call on the flop imo. If he may be feeling invincible, it could slow him down, and keep him from triple barreling you, but I don't think that's what's happening here.

Fold to his AK, and move on.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:29 AM   #3
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

No offense but this whole hand seems like spew to me. I wouldn't use "deep" to justify calling suited 2-gappers pre, calling a weak flush draw on a paired flop that hit's V's range, and just calling turn makes any good river obvious to V, so you're not extracting any value if you hit the river.

As played, I MIGHT call river depending on how he perceives you. He's definitely polarized.

Just reread the "weird value bets" part and would say fold. To summarize: fold pre and all streets.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:36 AM   #4
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

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No offense but this whole hand seems like spew to me. I wouldn't use "deep" to justify calling suited 2-gappers pre, calling a weak flush draw on a paired flop that hit's V's range, and just calling turn makes any good river obvious to V, so you're not extracting any value if you hit the river.
On a KK5 board, I would agree with you, but against a PFR, and heads up, I don't think that there are too many boat possibilities for V.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:38 AM   #5
WiWaise
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

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Originally Posted by LowSociety View Post
No offense but this whole hand seems like spew to me. I wouldn't use "deep" to justify calling suited 2-gappers pre, calling a weak flush draw on a paired flop that hit's V's range, and just calling turn makes any good river obvious to V, so you're not extracting any value if you hit the river.
Yeah, BB is whale who donk donk donk/called 88 on 367103 in a previous hand playing 80 % of his hands and I wanted to play pots with him + a little bit tilted being card dead. But folding pre is probably best

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As played, I MIGHT call river depending on how he perceives you. He's definitely polarized.
Probably not as the type that herofolds a lot here The thing is I expect to get calls on a flush river often since I have a very aggro image
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:51 AM   #6
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

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Yeah, BB is whale who donk donk donk/called 88 on 367103 in a previous hand playing 80 % of his hands and I wanted to play pots with him + a little bit tilted being card dead. But folding pre is probably best
TBH knowing BB is a whale, I call pre here too.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:54 AM   #7
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

I fold pre or make a play with a 3-bet, but that depends on my image, etc. Usually just fold.

Once you call pre, I guess the call on flop is OK, but now you hit a T on turn and feel compelled to call. Fold river, but better yet, just fold pre.
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Old 09-02-2016, 12:01 PM   #8
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

If V plays the same 48% of starting hands that T7s falls into, you have 50.8% equity OTF, IF, he c-bets with his whole range. T7s is at the bottom of that 48% range.

Since you have a decent idea of his betting range, all you need is Flopzilla, which will give you much more of an accurate assessment of where you stand, than our guessing.
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Old 09-02-2016, 04:07 PM   #9
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

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On a KK5 board, I would agree with you, but against a PFR, and heads up, I don't think that there are too many boat possibilities for V.
A boat is not the only reason not to draw on a paired board. Your implied odds go way down and you lost an out or 2 on top of that.

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Old 09-02-2016, 05:03 PM   #10
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

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A boat is not the only reason not to draw on a paired board. Your implied odds go way down and you lost an out or 2 on top of that.

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Which outs do we lose? A 5 isn't in V's range so all of our flush outs should be clean, we only lose one out when V has a pp, and AK/KQ/QQ/JJ is his likely range, so can probably discount that for a half an out. As for decreased implied odds, we've seen him make bad payoffs before, so I would doubt that a K55 board changes our implied odds from a K52 board.
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Old 09-03-2016, 02:26 AM   #11
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

Raise the turn
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Old 09-03-2016, 05:14 AM   #12
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

fold pre
you just check call all 3 street and this just seems so weak, I can see the value of raising the turn to start to make your story believable. You hand is just a bluff catcher and you are just hoping to get lucky that you are good here
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:32 AM   #13
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

I dont like the call pre but this can be a very profitable call down spot but you better be right
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Old 09-03-2016, 10:47 AM   #14
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

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Which outs do we lose? A 5 isn't in V's range so all of our flush outs should be clean, we only lose one out when V has a pp, and AK/KQ/QQ/JJ is his likely range, so can probably discount that for a half an out. As for decreased implied odds, we've seen him make bad payoffs before, so I would doubt that a K55 board changes our implied odds from a K52 board.
This is not a "relatively sold" V's complete range in the cutoff after a bunch of limpers and raising to 10 in 1/2. We don't know enough to rule out any suited broadway and all MPPs, at a minimum. As played, V's like this show up with Kx all the time in 1/2. With OP simply calling and obviously drawing, V's also bet out each street with QQ, JJ, TT at a minimum.

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Old 09-03-2016, 10:59 AM   #15
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

Ok, so you're adding TT to his range, but we hold the T, so that out isn't in the deck anymore.

To be clear, I'm still only talking about the flop, and advocated a fold on the end. I don't think that hero is good on the end, just that his flush outs are probably clean.
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Old 09-03-2016, 09:13 PM   #16
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

Please ignore the nits in this thread.

Call pre happily. Its $10 and usually the HJ is coming along as well. We want to play multiway deep stack pots in position all day.

Fold flop? Flush draw in position in a heads up pot? Um..... No.

If V has A high then we have 15outs to beat him so we are 60%. Not to mention the possibility of getting paid big on later streets if V can't fold his K and we flush him.

Also, even though its not ideal against described V, we have the backup plan to steal the pot if V checks the turn. This type of V isn't going to check a K on a flush draw board, so if he checks to us I think he's pretty much done with the hand given that the pot is pretty small and he has no reason to not put tight hero on Kx.

AP fold the river. But that's because we ran into the top of our opponents range. Just because we got to the turn and can't win doesn't mean we shouldn't have played the hand to start with.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 09-03-2016 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:23 PM   #17
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

The more I think about it, if we are calling the turn we can't really fold to this river, unless we are positive he will never barrel here with less than a 10. I would not be here though.
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:35 PM   #18
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

calling pre is fine on BTN - calling flop is fine too I suppose.

Calling turn is meh - We are drawing dead to very few combos of hands, and have decent equity against AK. Only hand that has us in rough shape is KT. I don't think I like a raise here, he shouldn't be folding a lot of hands, and than you might be perplexed to bluff shove river.

I'm folding river.
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:47 PM   #19
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

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The more I think about it, if we are calling the turn we can't really fold to this river, unless we are positive he will never barrel here with less than a 10. I would not be here though.
Villain can have some bluffs in his range and this would still be a -EV call (say he only does this with AQ, AJ, and QJ, Hero is still a 3:1 dog). I think the question is whether Villain can have hands like AQo or AJo, or at the very least most Ax, when he bets the river. If he would bet them on the turn but not the river then Hero should have the odds to call the turn bet but not the river bet.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:23 PM   #20
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

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Villain can have some bluffs in his range and this would still be a -EV call (say he only does this with AQ, AJ, and QJ, Hero is still a 3:1 dog). I think the question is whether Villain can have hands like AQo or AJo, or at the very least most Ax, when he bets the river. If he would bet them on the turn but not the river then Hero should have the odds to call the turn bet but not the river bet.
Most LLSNL villains simply don't play that aggressively. I never see triple barrel bluffs at 1-2, and a lot of the reason is due to stacks not being deep enough. Once Vs call on the turn, they are always calling the river unless an obvious draw comes in since the bet is usually 1PSB or less. Because of this, most villains at this level are simply not capable of triple barreling. Like, it's not even an option that registers in their mind. Most wont even double barrel even if the have 33% to win on the river.

There is no way this guy is not putting hero on atleast a K, especially if he was infact semi-bluffing spades. Once this guy gets to the river, how could he ever expect hero to fold a bet since the board has remained relatively innocuous?

This river bet is pure value and we are up against the top of this guys range. KQ+.
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:40 AM   #21
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Re: 107ss deep 1/2

Interesting. I triple barrel all the time, especially if I think my opponent is weak or drawing, but I have a tight image. Works almost every time -- I don't do it against certain sticky players or the type who just won't fold bottom pair once they get to the river.
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