Bay 101, at the 5-200 spread game. Blinds go 2/3/5 with the 2 on the button. I'm sitting on probably around $500, as is the main villain.

UTG I pick up 1010 and raise up to 20. If I'm opening pots I've been sticking to a very standard 4BB plus 1BB for each limper in front of me so that no one can read my initial bet sizing. Table had been playing pretty loose pre-flop, but not unintelligent, and most of the loose action was coming from late position, so I figured I wouldn't get an excessive number of callers raising from UTG. (EDIT: To clarify I mean that since most of the aggressive loose action was coming late, and not many people had been making early position raises, that I wouldn't be getting called light. Realized it didn't really make sense necessarily cause it could have been interpreted as "Lots of loose action from late position, so I didn't think late position would call me" which doesn't really make sense.)

UTG(Hero) raises to $20
UTG+1 folds
MP1(Main Villain) calls

(EDIT 2: Main Villain is quite, reserved, controlled body language, and is playing like a very solid TAG. Clearly seems to know what he's doing, and probably is aware that I've picked up on his overall image. Hard to gain any specific information about any of his specific hands while he plays them. That being said, we'd only been at a table together for maybe 2 hours, and <60 hands means he could have just picked up anything while I was sitting there so was folding a lot and just quiet from being bored)

MP2 folds
Hijack folds
Cutoff calls
Button calls
SB folds
BB folds

After rake, pot now stands at $85 going into the flop.

Flop Q46

Decision 1: **** this flop. Out of position with 3 to act behind, over-card on flop, all clubs and don't even have one of those. I didn't see any way I could justify leading into this, at least one of them had to have a Q or a high club considering all the AKs / AKo / AQs / KQs etc in their ranges. Also thought that cutoff or button could have been getting pretty good implied odds to possibly set mine since pretty much all of us were around 75-125BB deep, they were in position, and the pot was already growing to a reasonable size. If anyone could make an argument for cbetting here I'd like to hear it.

UTG(Hero) checks.
MP1(Villain) bets out $50 with a pause, but a brief one.
Cutoff folds.
Button folds.

Pot: $135, action on us.

Decision 2: Fold, call $50 growing the pot to $185 going into turn HU OOP, or raise. I tanked for a while, and ended up calling, not going to explain why though because I want to hear opinions from others about this situation too.

Turn 2
Pot $185

Decision 3: Check or bet? I checked, but again won't explain my process till later.

Hero checks.
Villain bets out $100.
Slightly longer pause before action than on flop, but not significantly so, unable to gain info.

$285 pot, action on us.

Decision 4: Fold, Call $100 creating $385 pot going into river OOP, or raise. Again, I flat call, will explain later.

Turn 9
$385 pot
Both players still have over $300 behind.

Decision 5: Check/bet etc.

Hero checks.
Villain bets $200.
Maximum bet/raise in this game, villain takes quite a bit longer than earlier bets, but does a solid job of not leaking emotion in his movements or facial expressions. No significant read on him during whole hand.

Decision 6: Fold/Call/Shove etc.

To prevent you guys from cheating I'm not going to include my decision but after I get some other opinions on the general play of the hand, ideas of his holdings, etc I'll post my thought process for where I left it out earlier and also what ended up happening. I know multi-way pot flop single color board isn't exactly a rare situation, but because of our positions and how we both played it I think it generated an odd dynamic on the turn and the river.

How was the trip to valuetown?

The only real decision point is on the flop. I would have made a PSB. Yeah, you have TT, but your range is better than that. Unless they have the Ace, King or a set, they're folding. Once you check, you've given up on this hand and should fold to any bet.

you've got the 42nd nuts, what's the problem?

I assume you mean that they took me to value town and not that I was check/calling for value the whole way?

I understand exactly what you mean about the flop decision. Even as I was check/calling the flop I was thinking to myself "What the **** are you doing?" and by the time the river action came around I was really beating myself up for not either betting or check/folding the flop.

The longer I think about it the more I tend to agree about PSB on the flop, at the time I was honestly just a bit too nervous to pull the trigger. That being said, considering I raised UTG and got three callers, I'm still not sure if their ranges would have been big enough to justify betting there. I need three folds more than half the time for +EV, and considering the types of hands they'd be calling an UTG raiser with, and the fact that between them they hold 6 cards, the chances of one of the three having one of the things you listed seems reasonable Keep in mind this is also the lowest stakes Bay 101 has of "no limit" (This was before they got true no limit as low as 1/2, back in the old spread only days, I just had made a record of the hand that I just stumbled across again recently and remember thinking back it back then) and seemed possible they'd called late with sub par hands you wouldn't normally expect to be in one of these players ranges. Possibly like suited connectors that hit the flush, QJs that they shouldn't be calling with but would, AQ, etc.

Additionally, if I had bet the flop, would you assume you need to fold to a raise? Seems like a fair number of players I've encountered would rather flat call it with a premium hand hoping I'd bet into them again rather than risk scaring me off with a re-raise, and that maybe a re-raise would be more likely to be something like AKo with a . If they did flat call would you check/fold the turn after it missed or fire another barrel thinking they were obviously drawing at that point?

Going to redo the OP also to have it fit 2+2's normal format, I'll have it changed in a sec.

tricky hand no doubt. Myself, depending on how much i can rely on how other villains will respond, i either c/give up or bet like $25 and check the reactions. We have the best hand still a lot, and if you include any villain calling having a Qx hand within the range of hands that we are ahead of, then we are ahead a huge amount of the time.

OK, let me explain that since i did mean what i wrote. If villain calls the flop $25 with Qx, and i know how this villain will respond, then i am now 3 barreling this flop and villain will have to call his stack off with Qx. Most wont. Not even at live unless they are the fishy type (which we shouldnt do this obviously).

If more than one call flop, im done.

This is nothing other than the higher level of play which always involves our equity, how strong villain is, what villains inflection point is, and how much we determine we should attempt and push villain off whatever he is holding that is ahead of us. This is the same logic as being on the river with say second pair no kicker and an aggressive thin valuebettor bets a marginal valuebet on river. Many players will call since they have showdown value etc, when actually raising and turning our weaker SDV into a bluff shows a much higher profit. Its a delicate balance. Done well it really raises your game several levels.

Your analysis is golden. You are right on the money. Hero's range is way better then TT for sure. In this heads-up confrontation our dude has got to make a bet and from that point on forward we all go with your interpretation from the above post of yours. Great!


Che,

This

You don't take check call lines with a flop like this. Any k or A high flush draw will bet this all the way to the river. You have to cbet and make your opponents call. His hand will be face up calling on this board. When you check you give up the lead. Now he is drawing and has FE with his aggression. You chase a 2 outer to the river. You have pot odds to call. But you lack the equity. So you must fold river. Very bad line to take on this board, that's valuetowning yourself. I'm pretty sure you got semi bluffed to the river. Then bluffed on the river. Smh

Face up as what? I could could see AQ calling, I could see any Ac or Kc calling, no?

I would probably bet the flop and give up to any further aggression.

Out of curiosity, what are you guys gonna do when villain with KcQx calls flop pot bet? Whats the rest of the plan, cause almost every live villain i know doesnt take a flop, flop top pair, and just give up for the first bet out the gate.

I'm cbetting and giving up majority of time

If I check its because I want to fold I'm never check calling here...or atleast rarely.

I realize checking a blank turn is week and invites an aggro thinking villain with KcQx to bet (so depends on reads), but I think that's a small percentage of the LLSNL populace. Do you like a blocker-size bet that still gives immediate odds for the FD?

I like the pot sized c-bet if I've got a good image and all the villians are not loose. But since both of those stipulations are rarely true in my games, I'll usually just c/f this flop. It's not a good flop for TT in any position, but especially terrible in EP, so just move on to the next hand. Occasionally I'll c-bet if my opponents are passive and won't simply call and then blow me off my hand on the turn.

Sure, you can check/hero-call down a villain and you'll win occasionally when he doesn't have a Q and all his outs miss, but most of the time you're riding the bus to valuetown.

i like making bets that allow me to determine almost exactly a narrow range that villain is holding (if i plan to push him off it). And then do just exactly that. Many players insist that live players just call too much so they abandon this philosophy altogether. its just wrong, since we all know tons of players that simply will not call a bet bet allin shove with TPMK.

oh, and BTW, the pots where we get players to call call fold, are awesome for our bottom line. Like anything else, it must be done at the right time, vs the right villain, with the right image.

just fold the flop and pick a better spot.

/thread

I don't understand the thinking of the pot size bet on the flop. Any high club will call down and any TP hands will call. In live play noone will believe you flopped a flush, you would have to 3 barrel this in order for them to accept the fact you flopped a flush. Your not getting a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call without putting a lot of money in this pot OOP with TT. I wait for a better spot and c/f the flop.

Fold flop, fold turn,

I bet you herocalled river and he showed Ac Kd and you just wonder if you played it right

Oh yeah, fold flop