V1 ($250): 40s man from Slovenia, new to the casino, seems to be loose passive pre-flop, but haven't seen him play any hands to showdown yet. Fit/fold post-flop.
V2 ($125): 30s loose passive white guy in baseball cap. Appears to be a losing, loose-passive reg, not understanding IO, RIO, position or stack sizing.
V3 ($650): 20s Asian. Loose passive pre-flop, I've only seen him raise big pairs, however I haven't seen him showdown any big aces yet (AJ+) either, so he might raise these as well. He also donks out for about pot with TP in multi-way pots.
V4 ($250): 20s man, appears to be related to V1 as they have been speaking Slovenian to each other. Plays a spewy lag style if it looks like the pot is likely to be HU, otherwise he reverts to loose-passive. Bets relatively small on bluffs, whilst bets larger for value.

Hero ($480): Playing tightest/second tightest at the table, however has been c/fing a few really wet boards after my PFRs have gotten 2+ callers, so my raises pre might seem to be light. That said, these Vs don't seem to care about image when it comes to calling a raise pre-flop.


$1/3 NL (9 handed)

Hero is dealt KK UTG +1

1 fold, Hero raises to $15, 1 fold, V1 calls, 1 fold, V2 calls, 1 fold, V3 calls (SB), V4 calls (BB).

This is more callers than raises to $15 were typically getting (last orbit I opened to $15 UTG and everyone folded).

Flop ($75) 689
V3 checks, V4 checks, Hero leads $50, V1 quickly picks up all his green chips (8 of them), takes six of them, and raises to $150. Folded back to hero who quickly folds.


Obviously when raised by V1 it's an easy fold, but my real question is, should I be considering c/f or c/c on a flop this wet, since every V in the hand is going to lead with TP+, and this flop hits at least one of their ranges really hard?

I would either c/c a small bet or c/f but lean more towards c/f.

I'm kind of meh about the fold. It is probably the right play, but if he had $200 instead of $250, I'd put my stack in. He's right at the 80BB mark where people don't put their stack in light. At 60BB, people will do this with draws far more often.

Would be nice if we had an indication of this is his entire budget for the night or not. I always look at people's billfolds when they rebuy. If it looks nearly empty, you know they are going to nurse the last stack. If you see a bunch of bills, he's ready to rebuy again and will be going in lighter.

Checking is awful. You're still ahead of their ranges. Like in this case, they'll let you know if you're behind.

If you do c/c flop, are you planning to bet blank turns and fold to a raise? Or just call down? How many turn cards can we actually consider blank vs scary? With two pair possibilities for hands like 87, I'm thinking that any club, 5/6/7/8/9/T has to bring the possibility of a scare card, although villains might not be aware of this and exploit us to push us off our hand when they hold a different draw that missed.

Leading allows you to get value from top pairs and flush draws. Hopefully you get one of these hands to flat and when a blank hits the turn you can bet 1/2 pot again to get full value out of those sort of hands. It does get messy when you see multiple callers.

The problem is that with a flop like this there are definitely situations in which you can have the best hand but be behind in equity. 8 7, T 8, T 7, etc. You cannot really bet the flop for value against these hands when you have less equity to win than they do; value owning yourself in a unique way.

Never thought of this, but that's a great idea. I've unconsciously defended myself against this tell by always carrying at least twenty $1s amongst the $100s for tipping purposes.

I've also thought that it's a good indicator of whether an opponent is a rec or serious player just by whether they're getting money out of a wallet rather than a roll of bills; also whether they're carrying 100s or 20s.

I'm fine with the b/f here. But I agree with Venice that if stacks were a bit shorter, we would have to gii

It might be bad but I almost prefer x/c this flop. As played its a fold which is unfortunate. On to the next one...

I would limp/reraise big pairs at this table. This table is simply far too loose to be able to narrow the field with anything other than a ridiculous big raise, and going to the flop very multiway OOP with a medium SPR flying blind puts us in a terrible spot, imo. If it limps thru, whatever, play a small pot that doesn't risk our stack (and be willing to fold to little action, which is never a big mistake in a small pot).

As played, nice fold to the flop raise.

I find flop tough, because if anyone just flats the flop bet, we're only going to have about a ~PSB left for the turn against all but one of our opponents, which is a really gross spot if the turn blanks. We'd be pretty much committed to shove on a blank, and yet getting in all our chips in a 5way pot with just an overpair seems bad to me.

For me, I really think we've messed up this hand by our preflop play (or, at the very least, we've perhaps unexpectedly gotten ourselves into a very difficult situation). When I fail like this preflop (and I do believe we've failed), I try not to compound matters on the flop (i.e. but unwittingly now playing for my stack), so sometimes I'll just check/evaluate. If there's lots of action, we can simply fold without risking anything. If it checks thru, ok, kinda gross, but lets hope a blank comes on the turn and then we can think about betting when our equity will be a lot better. If there's a single bet and no other callers, then I guess we play poker.

Gtryingtoavoidtoughsituationsbyplayingpreflopdiffe rentlyG

Do you think v would ever spaz out here with 10/10-QQ?cause zomg so many draws...

Does he 3 bet QQ a/kss or just flat these types of hands?

Grunch.

I would not by any means consider this an easy fold. In fact, I think I am most likely going to stack off here.

Stacking off with one pair hands in this game is rare for me, but I will do when the situation is right. I think this is one of those situations.

The only hand that has this crushed is T7. There are going to be a some pair plus combo draws in his range. He could also have TT, JJ, and QQ with some frequency here.

I don't have Stove here at work, but I am guessing you are getting better than the 35% here or so needed to call when we figure up all various combinations that he could be doing this with.

Plus he only has $50 left, so you are not facing a threat of a big all-in on the turn or river.

You should always be betting in this spot. You are betting for value with the side effect of protecting your hand.

I think a b/f is a good line here. I disagree that villain does this with TT or JJ. I also disagree that T7 is the only hand that has us crushed. Two pair and sets should also be in his range and I would think that if he had a FD he would just ship it

You are correct, those are in villain's range, although 89 is probably the only two pair combo I would think is in his range.

But still, if he is capable spazzing out with an over-pair then this is a really bad fold.

Villain is in his 40's and from Slovenia. I'm not excluding 68, 69, 57. I doubt he's considering a pre flop "range". The guy is there to gamble. He's described as a loose passive that plays fit or fold. I just don't see him looking down at like 57s and be like "def not + EV to play this hand."

at least not without a Slavic accent. :-P

as played, i think you have to fold here, you're not going well against three players and this board has hit someone well, especially V1.