There's a table cap of $200, I have $200, UTG has about $60, SB has $160. Most of table is old fat rednecks who never bet more than $10 preflop and never 3bet preflop ever even with aces. I'm young, asian, wearing a hoodie, and my minimum preflop raise is $12 at a table where people limp/call jacks/queens preflop so even though I'm playing 15% of hands I have a giant target on my back. UTG and SB are both old guys who limp/call everything but aces/kings preflop, and they never 3bet just like the rest of the table. They're all soft playing each other limp/open folding KT preflop when their friends raise to $7 but cold call call $20 raises against me with suited connectors. Everybody is passive postflop and nobody raises with draws or bluffs.


Hero is in CO with JJ

Preflop:
3 limps, Hero raises $18, SB calls $18, UTG calls, 2 folds.

Flop ($57): T87
UTG checks, SB checks, Hero????

bet 50/call

bet 26/fold.

lol

Effective stacks are @50bb, so no shame in betting to just get it in; u have backdoor str8 and flush draws, to go w your small pair.
It sucks they are softplaying, as they could both have monsters, but they don't like to bet into EO. Extract as much value as u can, when u can vs these fools, because thier softplay collusion will cost you in many different situations.
If they are really gunning for you, and you have a crazy image, I can see shoving here and getting looked up by worse/ a draw.
Don't tell me they showed you KK/QQ?

This.

Capped table, not capped buy-in? So you never, ever, get above 67BBs?

No shame in betting 2/3 pot and calling any shoves.

bet 29.

wait, utg has 42 after calling the 18? or 60? if 42, bet 20.

i'd bet about 20 too and call a shove from UTG. if he flats then put him all in on any turn imho.

[QUOTE=frizzled;23143365]There's a table cap of $200, I have $200, UTG has about $60, SB has $160. Most of table is old fat rednecks who never bet more than $10 preflop and never 3bet preflop ever even with aces. I'm young, asian, wearing a hoodie, and my minimum preflop raise is $12 at a table where people limp/call jacks/queens preflop so even though I'm playing 15% of hands I have a giant target on my back. UTG and SB are both old guys who limp/call everything but aces/kings preflop, and they never 3bet just like the rest of the table. They're all soft playing each other limp/open folding KT preflop when their friends raise to $7 but cold call call $20 raises against me with suited connectors. Everybody is passive postflop and nobody raises with draws or bluffs.






All of you with the lol, try reading the bold again. If this table raises you your JJ is about as good as 33 unless you suckout.

i think with this stack sizes UTG might push it with a draw/TP and you're getting 5:1 or better depending on your post flop bet sizing to call his shove. but i agree that calling a shove from SB is horrible given the reads.

So most people think betting 1/2 pot and calling shove from UTG while folding to SB is the best option?

In the actual hand it checked to me and I bet $50, UTG called with aces, SB check raised all in with 87 and I had to call at that point because I committed myself with my bet.

During the actual hand I had no idea what to do though. This type of game where people limp/call monsters preflop and everybody is out to stack me really threw me off. I couldn't just limp lots of hands and hope to hit because half the table had less than $80 so my implied odds were **** and I can't bluff short stacks but at the same time I was always scared to go for value with one pair premium hands because everyone was trapping me. I ended up value owning myself to death at this game playing my standard TAG over the course of 2 days with no idea how to adjust.

[QUOTE=AintNoLimit;23152294] I don't know how many times I've seen old guys play wider preflop vs a FOS laggy image young guy. Also I don't know how many I've seen old guys shove AT type hands on this board (because they know he was bluffing).

Betting 26 is terrible because this board is sopping wet, and the hand is MW. Checking is terrible for the previous reasons. Only option is to bet 40-50/call because once we bet that I don't think we can fold given odds.

[QUOTE=Jarretman;23163688]

I have just replied to around 5 posts where i have given answers contrary to the consensus. Somewhere along the line it should become obvious why i win at the rate i do. If i played this hand i lose 26 on the flop and im gone. You can justify getting it in all you want. In this game, its -EV.


When OP says everybody is passive and nobody raises with draws, i know these games. Ive been in plenty of them. Just because you saw old man somewhere else do certain things doesnt change this game at all.

[QUOTE=AintNoLimit;23178736] We're still missing value when we only bet 26 with all the draws out there. The call is almost trivial after we bet 50 given stacks that was just extra reasoning behind the 50/call, not the only reason.

[QUOTE=Jarretman;23185346]

my opinion is that you would be potsticking yourself for no real reason. These flukies will call flop and call turn with their draws. If we are ahead, we can charge them all we want on the turn. The bigger bet on the flop really serves no purpose vs these type of fishies. If they raise the flop, there are there, period. No draws, just nuts. And it doesnt matter what betsize we make it on flop. So we find out cheaply if we are behind. And if not, we drill them on the turn. If the draw gets there on the turn, well it would have anyways. Think about it. My way i have them call allin after the turn if i am ahead. If i am behind, i get away for 26 bucks. How can that not be a total win for me?


I wonder why the qoutes here are qouting the wrong persons?

^ not sure about the quotes, I think you started it with your misquote.

I'm saying we should bet more for value because the draws will call, not saying that we should bet more to purposely get ourselves pot stuck. I don't bet for information. Also what do you mean by "if the draw gets there on the turn it would have anyways"? We want to get the most possible money in when we have the most equity versus their ranges and I think a lot of their ranges will include draws that will call more than 26 and various other hands like Tx as well.

Betting less because we're afraid of getting potstuck or we're afraid that the opponents MIGHT have a better hand is foolish.

i guess im just not clearly communicating. Anyhow, that is just the line i would take.

If villain is on a draw here it won't just be a straight OESD or FD. He'll likely have overs to go with it or a pair. We're probably a 55% coinflip against that range on the flop. Now I'm assuming you're gonna be shoving or calling a shove on any turn because of pot commitment and if that's the case our EV against a combo draw will be 55% of whatever is in the pot. That's just against combo draws, against hands that beat us the best case scenario is 40/60 against 2pair and 30/70 against everything else. I think getting in slightly less money in on a 10% edge on the flop in exchange for not going broke when we're beat is a fair trade off.

you communicated my thoughts better than i did. thanks
When we get raised on this flop by these plaeyrs, we are behind, which was my point.

I think both lines are valid. But ANL, you have to realize that hero is passing up fat value and giving decent IO to the field by betting $26 on the flop and "drilling them on the turn if the draw misses" (which draw? there are several!) -- there is a type of opponent that will loosely call with a draw on the flop, then fold on the turn, so our way of exploiting that is to make the near-PSB on the flop and put the rest in on the turn, which they might also mistakenly call, given the price.

Most of us are leaning toward potting the flop and racing toward commitment because a) the pot is fairly large relative to stacks, b) A LOT of turn cards are questionable if we make a small bet that is called in multiple spots, and c) these villains are calling stations and our hand is quite strong on this board.

This is a short stack situation and I am willing to stack off on the flop, though it makes me happier to be the one doing the betting instead of calling an AI...that event is either: a) rare, according the the general read on the players or b) more common than you would think because they are "softplaying each other and gunning for hero"

Different thoughts are fine. I just think that the extra profit from just betting like $20 more on the flop isnt worth the ability to exploit the fact that we can fold to a raise. The draws that will beat us on the turn should i make it 26, will be there on the turn anyways. I dont mind betting 26 and folding to a horrible turn card. What i LOVE doing is exploiting the fact that we can fold an overpair here when they raie the flop and stick it up their butt for their being so exploitable.

The shallow stacks are what create this problem. If i bet 50 on flop, im not folding, ad thus i can no longer super exploit them. Although i could bet 50/fold but i just dont see a need in it. I will get their cash on the turn anyhow if they just call flop. They dont fold draws on turns IMO.

pot the flop and get all in... deepest villain only has 140 or so left !

Bold: Says who? How can you assume that lol. I agree there are going to be combo draws in his range but who says they don't just call with the bare 9 or low FD? It's not all combo draws.

Bold 2: It seems like you have a scared money attitude of course we're going to be beat sometimes but there are also a lot of hands that will call us that we dominate. Betting less because "zomg we might be beat and we might have to stack off if we're beat because we're so short" is sub-optimal, especially in this situation (there are so many worse hands/draws that will call a $50 bet on the flop if they're going to call a $26 bet). Betting 26 is just missing out on so much profit overall.

Another thing, the bet of 26 looks like a really weak bet in the eyes of everyone else. A perceptive player would realize that you're betting into a really wet MW flop a pretty low amount so you probably have a draw or more likely given the raise pre, a marginal made hand like the one you have and raise. A bad player thinks "I have a ten I better raise to protect against the flush draws and this guy clearly has AK". Basically a bet to 26 induces a raise a lot of the time (which isn't bad) but is terrible to b/f.


B/fing 26 is just not good at all imo.