1/3 in a Midwest charity room.

Hero ($335) is MAWG with likely a losing and/or scared of FDs image. Have had to fold to a lot of bad rivers tonight when I had TP and bet it twice for value, then river comes that completes a FD and also is either over my pair, pairs the board, or also makes a straight possible, and then have my V donk into me. I've folded all of them.

V (covers) is playing about 70/30 pre, and loves to bet post flop. Also loves to show after the hand is over, so we have a good idea about his ranges. He will fold trash to a raise if he hasn't already limped, but basically seems to l/c almost ATC, and will usually raise any regular playable hand, regardless of position, occasionally L/C those too. Have not seen him show down premiums yet, so not sure how he plays those. He has caught a bunch of weird 2p and trips, he also has been bluffing and showing a lot, sometimes with a draw, sometimes with complete air.

History hand: Hero in BB with 7c5c, multi-way limped pot with V as first limper in MP1. Flop comes 5d5s6s. Hero overbet donks, and V is only caller. Turn Ad, Hero bets 3/4 pot and V calls. River 3s, and hero checks, expecting V to bet his whole range on the SD/FD completing card and planning to bluff catch. As expected, V bets a decent amount (don't remember exactly, but between 1/2 and 2/3 pot). Hero calls, and V curses, then gets excited and says "8 plays!" turning over 85o.

OTTH: Gambly half-stack open limps in MP. Decent player calls in LJ. Hero looks down at black JJ OTB and raises to $20. V calls from the BB, both limpers call.

Pot: $75 (and rake maxed out)
Flop: 6s5s9c
L/P checks
V donks $25
Decent player folds
Hero raises to $90
L/P snap folds
V goes DEEEP into the tank and starts talking, asking me questions, guessing my holding, etc. I just stare at a spot on the table, but out of the corner of my eye I see him both load a call and a muck at different times in the tank. He talks himself in to me having "either jacks or kings." Not sure why AA or QQ aren't there. Maybe he blocks them? Eventually he makes the call.

Pot: $255
Turn: 6s5s9c 6c
V snap shoves for $225 effective. Like before I've even registered the exact card.
Hero: ??

I mean, when you raise and put 1/3 of your stack in on a wet board vs V with ATC you're along for this ride, correct?

My guess is V has QQ so his comment is 'either you have JJ and I win or you have KK and I lose' so V is jamming no matter what and living with the results.

Marsh

The V described is playing 70/30. Doesn't sound like he's limp/calling with QQ.

Its 100ish bb pre. You have an over pair vs a Moran.

Perhaps. But you play this game long enough and nothing surprises you. Just my guess based on OP's alluding.

Call

Oops. He didn't limp/call. He flatted from the BB. Corrected in OP now.

I'm particularly interested in what people make of the speech putting me on JJ or KK during the flop tank, and what people make of the snap turn shove. The rest of this hand is pretty straightforward imo, though if you have comments on it, I'm happy to hear them. How those items effect his range is more opaque to me.

The snap shove makes me think he is on a draw. I know a few players that will call with a draw and then snap shove the turn trying to maximize fold equity.

I'm snap calling. This could be 95o counterfeited for all we know. 88. Who knows. Not folding an OP to his range on this board. Call and reach for a rebuy, or high-five your neighbor, depending on how you're running.

I would just ship the flop once he donks. Whatever he's donking with has equity and there's too many action killing turns or cards that make you ask 2p2.

Overpairs are the nuts run it out.

If I'm raising preflop, I'm raising to $35. Any "reasonable" raise is going to get called by the BB a lot, and this will often bring along the limpers. We'll mostly consider ourselves committed (or be easily forced to commit) flopping an overpair due to the low SPR. So, with this in mind, if I'm raising, I'm raising to offer poor IO. A raise to $35 is admittedly likely stretching it, but at least it offers my opponents poorish ~10:1 IO. Our raise size offered 19:1 IO, which is far too good if we are forced to stack off postflop with an overpair, imo. I would actually rather overlimp (or perhaps even minraise) to setup a more playable spot than what we did, and I actually think it's a perfectly acceptable option (although I doubt many will agree with that).

Our postflop spot is the spot I attempt to avoid. Multiway having offered decent IO to everyone to outflop us, low SPR of lol 4 (our next bet will be stack committing), a drawy board (where we'd like to protect), a mediocre hand that is highly unlikely to improve, and yet unless everyone else is a complete moran our hand will be fairly face up pretty soon (with the exception of fastplayed overcards + draw). It's not a great spot, imo.

Still, probably lots of flop options. We could flat and then let him barrel his busted draw on the turn where we could get it in then. But half the deck is a scare card, so likely shouldn't lean to that. So I would lean to raising if we feel committed, and with decent player out of the mix I guess we should lean to that. I typically like offering poor 2:1 odds, so my initial sizing of a raise would be $150. But that would create a $375 pot with just $165 left and yet half the turns are going to suck. I would probably lean to just jamming now.

As played, no draws completed and we've got less than a PSB left against an action player when committed. Can we really do anything other than sigh snap call?

ETA: FWIW, I ignored the speech stuff as I typically just don't give this a lot of weight (I give SPR / commitment / etc. much more weight and see no reason to override that due to speech play). *If* I was to read anything into it, when villain calls out hands that you could have and then still continues this is pretty scary (he's put his playbook on the table and yet still plays the hand). And while this guy is obviously loose, there's nothing suggesting he's a complete clueless moran; he called you down in the 85 hand on a drawy board (instead of hurp durping in money due to "i haz trips") because he thought you may have been betting a better 5, and only went for value once you suggested you didn't. Still, preflop has setup a sigh commitment spot, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

If your raising? With JJ OTB in a 2-way limped pot? That's a new level of nittery, even for you, imo.

And I am definitely not always committed with an overpair. It depends.

As I say, if the options were overlimping versus this result (offering 3 opponents very good 19+:1 IO to stack us when we'll have a tough time not being committed with our overpair), I'll take overlimping every time. But we do have another option (raise bigger).

The "it depends" part is very difficult to navigate in these low SPR pots. We often end up making huge mistakes (either not committing with the best of it on drawy boards or committing with the worst of it). As I've always said, the better you are at these situations then the less you care about getting into them. But I really find I'm mostly just clicking high variance buttons in these spots (where I honestly have no idea whether I'm +EV or -EV over the long haul as I don't track them), so I avoid them.

GcluelessnitnoobG

My understanding is GG has 3 buckets here pre, raise to $35, overlimp and fold.
When raising with that strat, it is going to win the $10 a lot, and face a strong range when it gets action. I'd think one could go with like a 10% raising range off hand using this strat, but that goes against his "keep the decisions easy where possible post flop" m.o.

Yeah, I rarely feel committed due to SPR multi-way. SPR is a HU concept. I'm not afraid to play post flop against wide ranges, because I don't feel handcuffed in the way that GG does.

I mean obviously sometimes we are going to go with it with a bare pair, but there are so many more options, based on board texture, Vs, stacks, etc., etc. In the meantime, I'd like action and I'd like not to have to raise silly big with the worse parts of my range or give off sizing tells, which is what a raise to $35 would do.

I don't see how we don't feel handcuffed here. I feel so handcuffed I'm shipping the flop (and I'm not the only one). And no one else here is even considering folding the turn. Overall, I think we're going to make far too many mistakes if we're folding a lotta pots having put in 1/3+ of our stack when the board is about as good as it can be. But weighing that against offering 3 opponents decent 19:1 IO doesn't exactly mean we're printing monies either (moran dependent, of course).

As for the preflop raise size, the BB sounds like he is playing any non-trash hand to a raise plus the first limper is gambooley. I know we don't see eye-to-eye on this, but you're not losing nearly as many hands as you think you are by raising to $35 instead of $20. Heck, even taking a compromise route and going in between is still far better (a raise to just $7 more to $27 will likely produce the same result and yet the IO we offer are cut by a whopping ~25%).

Now I know you're also probably concerned about having part of a preflop raising range that isn't nuttish and yet you would still want to raise without making it stoopid huge or a sizing tell. But if you're getting 3 callers (which you'll often do in this spot), then it's very questionable whether you should have any non-nuttish raising here to begin with at this stack size (at least, imo).

GimoG

The speech makes me think he has AsQs, but who knows? I'm not folding an over-pair vs. this guy for 100bb with his actions on this board.

Call.

BTW, I don't feel handcuffed -- I'm calling because of the way the hand was played (tanks and shoves), the board, and V's speech -- and H's perceived folding ability and V's general mentality based on OP.

However, flatting is not good poker, and the $20 raise was fine and more is completely unnecessary -- anyone who folds pre should quit playing poker immediately (not that anyone suggested this).

This is a very specific situation that is not the general result. A LAGGY player with a wide range and a wet board that we have an overpair on. Let's say it was still an overpair, but now not so wet and the decent player c/r. Pretty easy fold to his l/c pre and then c/r flop range.

I make most of my money in medium-sized raised pots where I was the aggressor and am in position, from bluffing opportunities, to Vs l/c and hitting dominated pairs, chasing draws, etc. Sure I occasionally run in to weird 2p, or the draw comes in, etc., but overall this is my main money maker. Dropping that range out just so I can raise bigger with my occasional premiums is definitely not a trade-off I am willing to make.

If he's really a tard then sigh call.

GG, why don’t you just spend time getting better at poker instead of typing all these long posts? I really don’t get it.

Snap call as played. I think the river c/c in the history hand might be a bit optimistic.

There are no handcuffs AP. Everything about this hand is standard. We've kept the Villain lol-wide and we're getting it in with an OP. nh

What poker? The SPR is lol 4. There's not exactly a lotta poker to be played here in most spots. And that's not a good thing if we give decent IO preflop (assuming our opponents aren't completely clueless, which very few of them will be).

Gatleast,that'showIlookatthingsG

You can't view the 6 as a bad card even though he has pair+SDs that just improved. Really though, it's just a routine call now once you made the pot this big.