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Old 10-04-2017, 10:16 AM   #1
TPTK77
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1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

- $400 eff,
- Hero TAG has not shown down any hands, and won a few pots
- Villian playing pretty Tag. Raised AKs and saw him open limp 99 UTG+1

OTTH: 1 limp to Hero in MP, raises to $15 w/ ATcc, 4 callers including V on BTN
Pot ($75): Flop T95hh, hero bets $50. V calls
Pot ($175): Turn Qd, hero checks, V bets $85, Hero?

Thoughts:
- Wanted to thin out the field on the flop. Most people have been playing Fit or Fold Post flop. Thought most would only call with Top Pair, FD or OESD with bet sizing on flop.
- As played, the turn hits the V's calling range a ton. Don't think he turns his hand into bluffs and checks back all Tx hands in his range.
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:29 AM   #2
Tomark
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

a couple of notes

-if V limped 99 he isnt tight aggressive, he is tight passive (and i would guess he is weak postflop? i would say postflop info would be helpful to this hand) and id stay far away from him the rare times he raises.

-title says ATo, thread says ATcc. If its ATo, prolly fold pre.

Flop bet, id prolly pot it lie $70. Turn is tough, and villan dependent. I dont imagine him calling flop with a lot of queens in his range, so the turn is actually somewhat of a blank (he could have like QJhh KQhh AQhh, QT...) but dven if we dont put a lot of his range on a Q, V described doesnt seem like the type that would semibluff, or value bet with less than top pair, so I feel like you may well be beat, and I would probably make a real nitty fold based on him limping 99. If youve seen him bet with a draw before at all though, im calling.
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:06 AM   #3
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

I don't like our preflop result. My opinion is that ATs plays best in a HU pot (typically raised in order to get it HU) or multiway in a high SPR pot (and therefore limped). Making a preflop play that intentionally gets it multiway in a raised (low SPR) pot, especially OOP, is meh, imo.

The result is problematic because here we flop TPTK with a small SPR of 5, where OOP stacks will be able to go in by the river trivially with 3 small bets by our opponent. Do we want to play for stacks with TPTK against 4 opponents having given them awesome 30+:1 IO preflop? Probably not. And yet now we are making stack committing decisions postflop when it's not exactly clear whether we are good or not.

I honestly don't know how to play postflop in these cases (which is why I attempt to avoid them preflop). On one hand, the flop bet and sizing looks ~ok due to the drawy board; but on the other hand, if the world doesn't fold then it has set us up for a stack committing decision on the turn (which we're not comfortable with). As played, I probably check/fold the turn against a guy that looks like he's maybe a little passive and not getting out-of-line, but that could be a massive mistake.

GdoingsomethingdifferentpreflopG
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Old 10-04-2017, 12:00 PM   #4
Rhombo
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

Everything looks fine. Seems like one of those freak incidents where you just got called a lot. Still gotta play it.

Anyway just give up on the turn. BTN calling your flop bet sucks and seeing a Q on the turn double sucks, and it's so so unlikely that V created this situation for you on purpose. All his straight draws have a Q or got there and he might have called flop with AQ b/c why not? If v has Axhh it would make sense for him to barrel most rivers anyway since it pretty much looks like you have AT/KT/JJ when you c/c turn. I think it's a spot where V has a huge advantage when he's bluffing, and he honestly probably isn't.
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Old 10-04-2017, 12:04 PM   #5
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

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Originally Posted by Rhombo View Post
Seems like one of those freak incidents where you just got called a lot.
I guess we'll have to let OP tell us whether this result is typical, but one man's "freak incident" is another man's "standard".

GpreflopresultwouldbetotallystandardinmygameG
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Old 10-04-2017, 12:32 PM   #6
momo_uk
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

I think AT is a pretty clear fold here, but the tougher one is what are we doing with stronger pairs like AA/KK/JJ in these spots? Think they’re equally difficult.
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Old 10-04-2017, 01:46 PM   #7
maxrox272
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

you're actually folding ATo in MP in an unopened pot? Note: im a fish but this seems very tight
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Old 10-04-2017, 02:11 PM   #8
WehrmatsWormhat
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

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Originally Posted by maxrox272 View Post
you're actually folding ATo in MP in an unopened pot? Note: im a fish but this seems very tight
Depends on the table, but yeah, that seems tight to me.
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Old 10-04-2017, 02:16 PM   #9
JayKon
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

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Originally Posted by maxrox272 View Post
you're actually folding ATo in MP in an unopened pot? Note: im a fish but this seems very tight
First, there was one limp before the Hero.

Second, think about what kinds on flops get you action: mostly when you pair the A. That 10 kicker is going to be out kicked a lot.

Now I'm not saying AT is an automatic fold, nor am I saying it's a raise. I'm saying it's a marginal hand that falls in the "it depends" range.
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Old 10-04-2017, 02:20 PM   #10
johnnyBuz
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

Bet/fold turn

Pre is fine/standard
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Old 10-04-2017, 02:22 PM   #11
Man of Means
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

If suited, preflop is fine. If not, hand is marginal and depending on stacks + play of players behind, might raise or muck it. Flop seems standard.

On the turn, you're right, this card hits his range. Though part of the range is AT, KT, JT. If you feel villain is more likely to check those behind and doesn't semi-bluff AXhh, then we fold.
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:24 PM   #12
TPTK77
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

Hey all - hand was suited. ATcc. misclick on the title.

On the turn, i did think V would check all Tx hands, bet all better (2pair, straights etc). sets are not in his range except QQ imo. I thought he would be with AXhh and take his equity with all other heart combos.

Also, the table was pretty passive. Nobody really raising and that's why I decided to isolate with ATs. I could limp behind but I prefer to iso.

If the turn was a brick, I would be betting for value, but it hits his limp/call pre, flop calling range.
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:37 PM   #13
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

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Originally Posted by TPTK77 View Post
Nobody really raising and that's why I decided to isolate with ATs. I could limp behind but I prefer to iso.
But you didn't isolate. You got *four* callers.

Again, you'll know better than us, but this result would be totally standard at my table; so now it's just a matter of whether you are cool with result (I'm not, but I think I'm typically in the minority on this).

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:51 PM   #14
FWWM
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

Limping pre is terrible, raising is fine, can be more depending on the table. Flop is fine, I like a bet on the turn, but it's marginal, cc is fine too. Never folding here, we are too strong against his range. Reevaluate OTR
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:45 PM   #15
Amanaplan
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

It's really ok to ckf turn in this game.
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Old 10-04-2017, 10:04 PM   #16
Sashua
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

Maybe a check call isn’t immediately incorrect, but then playing that river is very difficult if no ace or ten falls. And I doubt villain is bluffing here. Check and fold turn


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Old 10-05-2017, 10:50 AM   #17
TPTK77
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
But you didn't isolate. You got *four* callers.

Again, you'll know better than us, but this result would be totally standard at my table; so now it's just a matter of whether you are cool with result (I'm not, but I think I'm typically in the minority on this).

GcluelessNLnoobG
The game has been on the tighter side when the pot has been raised, but just like any 1/3 game... a lot of limping. If I wanted to "properly iso", would you recommend a larger sizing to $18?

Also for V, I labeled him as someone who was incapable of semi bluffing or barreling without a big/made hand. I think if I was in position, I likely would have called an re-evaluated the river...
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:55 AM   #18
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

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Originally Posted by TPTK77 View Post
The game has been on the tighter side when the pot has been raised, but just like any 1/3 game... a lot of limping. If I wanted to "properly iso", would you recommend a larger sizing to $18?
You know who calls a preflop bet for $15 but not $18? No one in the history of live 1/3 NL poker. At least, that's my experience; yours may differ.

One of the problems here is that we're in MP, so we have zero clue how many people (and who) are interested in their hand and would like to see a flop. If we were in LP we'd have a much better clue of what type of raise size is likely to "isolate" (if we even decide that's something we want to do; AT is often dominated by hands we end up isolating).

In EP/MP, I auto-fold ATo. ATs plays fine multiway in high SPR pots, so that's why I'd typically open limp it in these spots. In LP, we'll have more information and therefore more options (including raising).

Note that with all of this I'm simply referencing your idea of "isolating". If you are cool with going 5ways to a bloated low SPR pot with this hand (which more than a few in this thread are, I'm just not one of them), then your result is fine.

GimoG
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:43 AM   #19
chop$
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by TPTK77 View Post
Hey all - hand was suited. ATcc. misclick on the title.

On the turn, i did think V would check all Tx hands, bet all better (2pair, straights etc). sets are not in his range except QQ imo. I thought he would be with AXhh and take his equity with all other heart combos.

Also, the table was pretty passive. Nobody really raising and that's why I decided to isolate with ATs. I could limp behind but I prefer to iso.

If the turn was a brick, I would be betting for value, but it hits his limp/call pre, flop calling range.
I'm curious as to the removal of all other sets than QQ from his range.
Based on your original description, that would be the least likely set I'd have in range. (to me "pretty TAG" would 3bet QQ from the button against a MP open).

Surely if a V is passive enough to just call QQ on the button they're passive enough to just flat a set on the flop.

I'm also likely giving up on this turn, and OK if I got bluffed off it.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:01 AM   #20
flopturntree
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Re: 1/3NL: ATo facing Turn Bet

Fold turn is correct play, Q is terrible turn card for your exact hand.

Also should consider betting turn with some frequency to target flush draws and some one pair gut shot type hands obviously folding to further aggression.

If you are getting 5 callers also consider sizing up preflop

NH
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