I have seen this OMC refuse to fold premium pairs to overcards on the board (i.e QQ on AKx board). He is not afraid to call big bets with non-nutted hands. Will bet with second pair if checked to. But for the most part a check-raise almost always means the nuts.

Preflop:
UG ($800): OMC opens to $11 (small for this game). Standard is $15-$18
SB ($600): calls $11
BB ($390): Hero calls $11 with 2♦️2♥️

Flop ($33): A♠️T♦️2♠️
SB checks
Hero checks
UG bets $15
SB calls
Hero calls

Turn ($78): 3♣️
SB checks
Hero checks
UG bets $65
SB calls $65
Hero action?

River ($):

Notes:

Lead flop.

As played, raise to $200 and shove river.

Please dont donk bet A high board from BB. Also dont 3b to 200 leaving you with 150 or so behind.

Jamming Turn or calling and donk jamming river on non flushy cards is what i would do.

Care to elaborate why not?

And fold out everything but 6 combos of AA/TT and maybe even most of AT?

If I would find myself in this kind of situation, I would JAM the 360$ and take the pot (208$) or get called. There is nothing wrong with winning smallish when there are lots of bad cards in the deck and basically no accurate info where you are at in a multi-way pot. However, no point to slow-play here and folding is out of the question. If you get called by a bigger set or 45, then just reload or go home. That's poker

Your read on OMC was that he's not afraid of calling big bets with non-nutted hands. The way the veteran is betting, might mean a hand like AA, TT, AK or AT (AA/TT would of course crush you but those are also the most unlikely cases). This means you might very well get him to the middle with very unfavorable holdings that you have witnessed before.

SB could be there with Ax too, but the board is very draw-heavy, so the range is larger. Hands like 45s, 35s, QJs, KTs etc. are probable holdings for him. He might also have the same read on the opener and wants to keep the pot as small as possible before making his hand. Your shove would put him to a test with his draws and that is what you want to do here.

Anyway, you want to get value from Ax hands and give the drawing hands bad odds to continue, but there are not many reasonable ways to do all that. Raising small (130-200$) is like making it pre-flop 22$ and anything less than your shove, means that you don't have enough to bet on the river. With bigger stacks and/or when facing total idiots I might consider something else.

Calling is a big nono if you don't plan to check-fold when the case-deuce doesn't hit on the river ...I just can't find a reason to call here.


OT: I would prefer check-raise on the flop to 65$ or even bigger, lead the turn and build the pot straight away. Your villains might also put you on draws and the hand is still very well disguised so there are enough reasons for aggression. Your image and the table's history are in a key role as well, but with the information given or when in a new table, I would choose more aggressive approach.
Donk-bet on the flop could work only against a very aggressive player who is most likely to raise you on the flop. Donking would also need smaller stacks or a bigger pot to get everything to the middle straight away.
Only in heads-up situation, depending on who I'm facing, maybe AA would be worth to slow-play, but never when in a multi-way pot on boards like these.

Flop is fine. Check/raise is OK, but it's a fairly dry board and they are just going to fold.

Easy shove on turn. Pot is big enough and you don't have enough to raise w/o shoving.

This is not a fairly dry board!

AT2 with a raise pre-flop? Except for the spades, which I'm not too worried about, it's pretty dry. If it is set over set, so be it -- it's still a dry flop.

It's a very dry board - only straight draws are gutters.

Yes there is flush draw - there is ALWAYS flush draw in most flop.

Yes, there are only two outcomes when someone jams. Someone calls or folds.

Yes, there is actually something inherently wrong with minimizing value in top of your range. Taking it to extreme to illustrate why there is something wrong, imagine a scenario where you ever only win blinds with JJ+, how exactly can such player win in poker?

V may not be afraid of calling big bets, but a huge overshove that's 2x the pot may induce one of the few times that V might find a fold, especially with anything below top of his range.

Read on V is that he's not afraid to call big bets - it is not the same as super calling station who's never folding any piece of the board.

There is a syndrome called MUBS (monster under the bed), where players always put others on top of their range.

This board is bone dry and unconnected. You want people making mistake calling with weak hands, not fold.

Actually it means "they" don't have enough to fold on the river.

It almost sounds like you rather players fold than call in this spot.

It's kind of interesting that V's range is perceivably the same given the limited action in the OP and what you're proposing to do, and yet you are targeting two very different ranges. Something to think about.

Idea of donking is that it's an A-high board against preflop aggressor, which means two likely scenario:

1. V has Ax and sees your action as weak. H's range is underreppped, which is a great thing in this scenario.

2. V is weaker than Ax such as smaller PP. V's going to shut down anyway in most LLSNL games and isn't putting significant money in the pot unless he improves. In such scenario, donk betting is charging V to see free turn and may even induce V to be aggressive with weaker range.

I want to add that SB is somewhat aggressive, and so his range pre+flop is quite wide. He could very well have all kinds of draws/combo draws.

His Turn check call would lead me to think that (1) I am ahead of him on the Turn (2) If he is on a draw, I need to charge him now otherwise I'm stuck in the middle on the River and could be forced to check/fold if he leads with a large bet. He could, would, (and credibly) rep any spade, 4 or 5 that falls on the River.

This means I have to decide if I'm ahead of OMC. I only lose to AA and TT. But as I alluded to in my OP, an $11 UTG raise in that game is very small. However, one can also look at it as being very fishy (i.e. strength).

I did not consider leading the flop at the time, but I actually like that play. OMC would call with any Ax, and given his sticky nature, probably calls with KK-JJ as well.

However, if I got raised on the flop, he's repping AA or TT - do I fold? That seems absurd.

Finally, @ Tanqueray, given my stack size, at the time, I did consider raising the Turn, but not to 200 since that would essentially leave me with nothing behind; raising to 200 is an effective all-in in my mind.

Therefore, on the Turn, I considered all-in or just call.

If V has AK, how much would you raise?

Idea is to give V reasons to justify a call with worse, not to give yourself room to fold. It’s crazy to think about folding in this spot.

Shouldn’t play 22 if you’re actually considering a fold in this spot.

Which street?

Turn.

I was not considering folding.

My question about folding was if I were to lead flop and got raised by OMC, can I truly ever be ahead

On the Turn, if SB were not in the hand, I would consider flatting the $65, or raising to $165 (if I feel OMC has Ax) and planning on getting it in on the River. If I got reraised on the Turn, then I'd feel sick.

Because SB is in the hand, I lean towards a raise. However, raising to $165 accomplishes very little since if OMC just calls, SB is now getting a very good price to draw.

I understand your logic of raising to $200, but is that not basically the same as going all-in on the Turn (given that I have very little chips behind)?

For this question to have merit, you are essentially saying that V would never raise with Ax < 22 or PP that missed the flop.

If above is true, then clearly you should fold.

I am baffled by how OMC calling $100 more is accomplishing very little. If OMC just calls, there would be $473 in the pot and about $280 effective left. It would make an easier call than $380 shove and $273 in the pot.

I don't think you understand the logic at all. Consider the concept of piecemealing vs all-you-can-eat.

If V has AK, calling $200 seems more reasonable than $360 shove. Once V calls $200 on turn, it would make folding to $160 shove on river that much harder.

With the awkward stack size, raising anything but all-in on turn is silly. Making it $165 to $200 and getting a call from OMC just brings SB along with all of his draws. The only way you'd ever want to raise smaller is if you think it will induce OMC to shove.

For $135 more, if OMC calls, SB will also call, if he is on a draw, given that he called the initial $65.

That was what I was thinking.

What draws are you worrying about pricing SB in?

Looks like everyone is super afraid of draws ITT.

If being drawn out is that detrimental to your decision making, then yes, trading value to avoid being drawn out is fine.

What do you think SB is flatting with? It's most likely a flush draw. Maybe some weird little straight draw. The flop is one thing, but having two players interested in the turn has to make you start thinking about setting the wrong price for draws. We are not heads up.

Exactly what I'm thinking.

Given the small pre and flop sizing, I basically keep SB's range very wide and treat it as if he effectively checked his option.

So he could have all kinds of spade draws, combo draws (suited broadways, 4sXs, 5sXs, TxXs, etc.) which I don't want drawing for the right price.

The other side is he has a bare Ace, which I crush.

The question is, does he arrive here and call a $65 on the Turn with more Ax (AJ, A9-A5) combos than the above drawing hands?

I lean towards there being more drawing hands, especially given the fact that I think a bare Ace should be folding on the Turn.

Thoughts?

It's not about avoiding being outdrawn. It's about not giving the correct odds to draw.

Say I raise to $165 (remember what I said before), say OMC calls with Ax, pot is now $473. SB only needs to call $100 to win $473. 4.73:1 odds.

Even if I made it $200 and OMC calls, SB gets $543:$135 odds - even a bare flush draw has the right odds to just call and hope to hit.

How many combos of flush draw exist in SB’s range that isn’t just horrible to even exist in his range?

I suppose we are stuck with the whole notion that anytime there is flush draw available, somebody must have it.

In your opinion, what's SB's range of hands?

Wider than flush draw.