A lot has been said in this thread, that's being results-oriented. 4-bet pre and sizing is totally fine. Raising $200 seems insane, we might as well push. Consider that there's a straddle, so effective stacks are essentially <100BB. Shoving most flops is completely fine, as we are representing super strong range. However, on this flop, there aren't that many draws, so if you really had QQ, KK or AA, you want to get some value by betting smaller. If villian can read this, then shove looks suspicious. Most live whales are not folding. Otherwise, this looks good.

Interesting example. Never would have expected that fold after your description. But you never know. Good to have your image, I guess.

Preflop sizing was crucial, after all. With 400 in the pot and 300 behind it would have backfired. Most likely.

I would have opted to check-fold this. The plan of cbet-bluffing the calling station off his hand on the flop was pretty ambitious.

The stations are not always predictable, though. Sometimes stranger things happen: I have seen the biggest calling-station of all time (usually calling 2 barrels with A high) lay down a flopped low straight to 3 barrels from top set on a river making a higher straight possible. Sometimes it is just plain dumbness.

Fair point in a vacuum. However, i certainly also have some QQ+ in my flop jam range here against a sticky whaleish villain for fat value. Exploitative sizing against certain villains i believe could pay off. Not doing it all the time, but it certainly happens at some frequenzy. So therefor i can also overbet jam AK in spots like this without it looking too suspicious.

Open shoving QQ here would be absolutely terrible, you probably don't play JJ this way, and you probably bet flop/shove turn with KK/AA/AQ most of the time....so yeah, your line just looks FOS and most players are going to call it off with TT here. At least you won the hand.

Just take a birds-eye view for a moment. V is stationing whale, and you are putting in 200 beebers over two streets without a pair. It’s indefensible.

+1

OP, you are just being results-oriented. This is not a good flop to shove and expect to have FE.

To be clear, I’d imagine you beat the game and have a plan in spots like this, but it’s still a punt in the greater sense of the term.

What a compliment, who would believe.

Really? So its cool life for villain to stackoff here with his underpair to the Q for example like 1010 that he had this time when a player with a winning tight rep 4 balls it pre and piles the flop into him?

I would estimate that i have a decent amount of fold equity on this kind of flop. The ones i would shut down on is for example like 5-6-7 monotone without the suit, or 8-9-10 monotone something like that where i have alot bigger chance of getting snapped off cause it hits his continuerange harder.

Yeah man. Like I said earlier, people don’t fold pairs in 4b pots when AK whiffs

Exactly, that is the law- this hand just magically was an exception then i guess.

Pretty much. I’m not saying it’s a bad play, but most Vs didn’t call pre to fold when they don’t flop a set. They call to see if an A or K hits the flop and then they hem and haw and eventually call

I guess this hand is at least one example then that under the right circumstances it do happen.

Okay, so how do you want to play this hand? Just let him check down his hand after 4 betting and uncapping my range pre with like 88 or 1010? Check when you whiff 2 out of 3 times and bet only when i hit? That sounds pretty tight passive and faceup to say the least. "No hit no bet" strategy.

If you have the right image and the fish is capable of folds like this (which I was not sure about), then go for it!

Having a zero bluffing range against a stationing whale isn’t tight passive, its a sound pure strat that makes the most money. Also, you don’t ‘whiff’ 2/3 of the time when your 4b range is, say, JJ+, AQo+, AQs+, and as others noted you wouldn’t want to just shove that range (introducing the possibility that he might fold) when you can just bet less and have the station call off dead over flop+turn nearly always. Given all of this you might be able to choose a better line (than shove) with the 1/3 of your range that doesn’t flop a pair.

And by the way, if this goes ck ck, ck ck you’re crushing him. Birds eye view again, imagine 2/3 time you win 500, and a 1/3 of the time you realize your equity at no cost post. Dream.