8-handed in 1/3 $300 max buy-in. Decent action game. With walkers, often playing 6 or 7-handed (and making adjustments). V1 is MAWG and middle of the road on the aggression scale, a little tight PF, but plays decently post-flop. Hero has been going back and forth between TAG and LAG in the 5+ hours for this session.

LJ (Hero): $400 effective vs. V1
BTN (V1): $400

Folds to Hero in LJ who opens to $12 with KK. HJ & CO flat. V1 OTB 3!'s to $65. Folds back around to Hero.

Considering stack sizes, what is the best 4! sizing to try and set-up V1 to get stacks in by the end of the hand? 4!'s from OOP always looks incredibly strong and I have one of the obvious hands with which many 1/3 players will 4! PF IP/OOP. I don't want to 4! shove and give V1 opportunity to fold all the parts of his 3!'g range that I'm beating but can otherwise stand to take a flop and therefore give me better chance to play for stacks? Min raising also looks suspicious.

Also, a little history between V1 and I about an hour prior to the hand in question where I 4! might also affect the answer:
V1: ~200BB
Hero: ~150BB

Folds to Hero in CO who opens to to $12 with KJs. Folds to V1 in BB who 3!'s to $50 with QQ. Hero 4!'s to $150 (using KJs as part of 4! bluff range when IP, especially against BB 3!). V1 calls.

Flop: J-high, dry, rainbow (Pot $304)
V1 checks, Hero checks back.

Turn: J-x-x-J (Pot $304)
V1 leads for $100. Hero calls $100.

River: J-x-x-J-brick (Pot $504)
V1 checks. Hero bets all-in. V1 snap calls.

V1 is disgusted to see that I 4! PF with "such garbage".


In the hand in question, I think V1 has pretty strong hand, since he's willing to 3! over an opener and two flat callers between us. My cardroom only allows a bet and three raises, so not worried about V1 5!'g.

$65 is enough that you don't have to 4 bet to get stacks in. A bet/bet/shove line won't require any over betting. From OOP a 4 bet is probably a good idea most of the time so you don't have to bet into villain every street. Something smallish like $175 sets up a small flop bet and a turn shove. This also gives you the option of checking a street if you want to.
The trick in this sort of situation is getting the bet as small as possible while still looking reasonable. If you go too big villain will realize they are committed if they call and will often fold or shove. You also need to avoid giving too good of odds.

If you were to just flat the 3bet, the SPR is going to be a lol ~2, which in itself is a completely trivial spot to get stacks in. So obviously any 4bet whatsoever (even a click back) sets up a trivial spot where stacks are in play.

So sizing to getting stacks in isn't an issue (stacks were in play as soon as Villain 3bet at this stack size). The issue is what is the best method to continue. Pro of flatting is that he obviously can't hero fold preflop and may overvalue/bluff postflop. Con of flatting preflop is that he might not get in stacks postflop with whiffed AK / QQ on A/K high board / etc. (all hands he might consider stacking off with, or at the very least get more money in with, preflop).

Even without your FOS image, I think I've convinced myself that the best play is to 4bet here (pros outweigh cons, imo). But with your FOS image, an especially easy 4bet. I'd probably go minnish sizing.

GcluelessNLnoobG

After he gives you the speech about how much you suck for 3 betting KJs, it is just all in. With an SPR of 2 if you call, the stacks are going in if he has AA anyway. He's going to spite call you.

I'm raising to 160 (which is my standard oop 4bet size anyway 2.5x) Calling is really bad given the dynamic you just described and jamming let's him off the hook
Give him the chance to do something stupid if he puts you on another bluff

If it was just HU, I would agree that $65 is enough to lead to a very good chance to get stacks in. Plus, not 4!'g would be good deception with my actual holding.

The problem is the HJ & CO; I want to believe that HJ & CO were both around 80-100BB effective starting off. I would be very surprised if either was to suddenly 4!.

If I flat V1's OTB 3! to $65, HJ is getting immediate 3:1 odds ($158 for $53) although in the 'monkey-in-the-middle' position post-flop. CO is then further incentivized should HJ flat as well, although with same post-flop positional dilemma.

Lastly, although others have posted in different threads about playing for overall best +EV with strong holdings like KK, not just winning that specific hand, I'm not one to relish playing what is most likely the best (starting) holding from the worst position post-flop multi-way in what would be an extremely bloated PF pot.

I will post actual proceedings and results in a few days; just wanted to see if I was completely off the mark?

Min-click, I don't want to be sandwiched between BTN and HJ/CO, makes post-flop much harder. Jam is fine too. I like a small 4! better because it looks like you are spazzing with KJ or whatnot again (which you didn't jam previously).

HU, I would prefer a flat to keep his QQ/JJ/AK thinking they are ahead.

I misread HH and didn't realize there were still 2 more to react after us facing the 3bet. So yeah, most definitely 4betting.

GcluelessNLnoobG

175

A 4b of $130 or higher sets up an SPR of <1 which basically guarantees stacks go in.

Given your image, I am 100% 4b here. The key questions are:

What can V call with pre if you shove?
What will you do on an AXX flop (X is not K)?

If V can call anything besides KK/AA, shove it pre.

If you are looking to maneuver post on an A high board, then you should 4b smaller to $130 and try to induce a 5b shove or play a hand post. It's still a really tough spot to get away from post, so realistically your plan should be to 4b larger and shove all but the worst flops here.

I 4! to $150 - essentially a hair over a min-click back (but folds out HJ & CO). I didn't want to 4! shove as it might allow Villain to fold some parts of his 3! range (value & bluffs) that would otherwise be able to accept offered odds to see a flop IP, even if my image and history with opponent might make a shove call a little easier.

Pot is now ~$330 and Villain has ~$250 effective left in stack which is ~3/4 PSB.

My plan was to lead bet $100 (~1/3 PSB) on any flop. If board is:

1.A-high with two low cards (two-tone or rainbow) and:
A.Villain jams ==> I reluctantly fold for remaining $150 (yes, $150 for $680 only needs ~17% equity, but with what is most likely a two-out scenario...puke fold. Someone can tell me if this line would be bad play?
B. Villain flats ==> check calling down any future action on turn and river.

2. A-high with Q, J, and/or T (two-tone or rainbow) and:
A. Villain jams ==> again, reluctant fold, but since TT-QQ represent some parts of 3! range that wanted to go to the streets and are now way ahead...sigh, fold.
B. Villain flats ==> tread cautiously, most likely check calling down and/or incorporating live read.

3. A-high monotone of my K's suits or other monotone of my suits:
A. See you at the river!

4. A-high monotone or other monotone not of my suits:
A. tread cautiously...may find reluctant fold if four-to-flush appears before all the $$$ is in, unless final bet (Villain breaks down remaining $150 in pieces) means I'm getting something like 10:1, crying call...NH, sir!

5. Q and J high boards:
A. betting for value, but just accept that JJ-QQ just got there.

In scenario 1 and 2, I would simply check if you are going to fold to the re-raise. Betting $100 here doesn't do anything except get V to fold his non-ace hands, which you were crushing anyway.

With that said, I would probably range V here at TT+, AQs/AK. If he bluffs TT-QQ on an ace high board, I have to check/call it off.

Once you 4b to 150+, I think the money has to go in on almost any flop or you are really exploitable. The hand as it played out was well played, as on that flop, you have no reason to pile it in right away.

In one of the Solve 4 Why episodes, poker out loud, Landon Tice says his 4b! sizing with whatever range he chooses is 2.2-2.3x in position and 2.7-2.8x in position. I started using those sizings ever since and they completely make sense. So here, with those 2 flat callers, probably leaning closer to 2.8x

Absolutely do not 4bet KJs against 1/3 nits. Punt city.