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Old 04-07-2014, 01:53 PM   #1
ryno19
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1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

Last few days I've been just getting beat to death on my preflip aggression, and I'm wondering if I'm making mistakes. My preflop raise is pretty standard $15. And I regularly am getting 3-5 callers. It's at the point where c-betting a dry board with AK is suicide because somebody always has something they won't let go. My QQ lost to T8 yesterday on an 8 high board that I pounded all the way to the river where he hit another 8.

I'm very selective in EP what I will raise with, but in LP I'm raising with pretty much 89sc+ QJ+ any suited broadway cards and any PP ... Is this too wide?

I've been trying to eliminate limping and over limping pre from my game based mostly on all the "never limp pre" comments that seem to be a reoccurring theme in most of my threads. It's pretty much gotten to the point where if I can't raise pre then I'm folding it, but I think this is hurting my image as everyone just thinks I'm always trying to bully the table so they call me down with garbage and miraculously get there.

I know we want to be called by worse hands, but 4-5 worse hands calling seems to be a recipe for disaster and someone always gets lucky with something
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:07 PM   #2
AbqDave
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Re: 1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

You might be able to play your game by slowly increasing the amount of your pfr to get the desired results. Sometimes this backfires when the fish tighten up and only call with the very top of their range.

You can also tighten up and value bet the living daylights out if these dopes.

Which ever one you choose, remember. DONT BLUFF THE CALLING STATIONS.
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Old 04-07-2014, 03:29 PM   #3
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

Whoops, I already added my 2 cents to your previous thread, but I'll do it again here.

If your 1/3 NL table is very loose and full off pay off station idiots postflop, then a very viable and profitable strategy is to simply be quite passive preflop, see a flop with speculative hands keeping the SPR skyhigh, flop a monster, and then get the chips in postflop. Of course, if we don't flop a monster / good draw in a very multiway pot, then we also have to learn to get out at the slightest hint our TP (i.e. junk) is no good.

Raising (imho) should only be done if (a) we can narrow the field to 3way at worse or (b) setup and SPR where we are content stacking off postflop given the number of players we expect to be up against.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 04-07-2014, 03:44 PM   #4
ryno19
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That's ok, the more I read it, the more I beat it into my brain lol
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Old 04-07-2014, 06:38 PM   #5
Koss
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Re: 1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that based on your join date and post content that you're relatively new to playing poker, or at least new to taking it seriously. Most of us did not become great players overnight. It takes a lot of time reading books, reading forum posts, and spending time at the tables. If you haven't read The Theory of Poker yet that should be your first assignment. It won't teach you specific LLSNL strategy but it will teach you how to think like a poker player. So go do that if you haven't yet. After that Ed Miller's NL Holdem: Theory and Practice yet is a decent book if you're going to read one more.

Next up just focus on posting hands, reading the forums, and grinding. Great NFL quarterbacks always talked about how the game "slowed down" for them early in their careers. I believe this happens to poker players as well. After enough time studying and grinding, it will all come together and suddenly click for you. In the mean time sessions will be rough. You will take bad beats and coolers and wonder if you made mistakes. You will have some winning sessions where you will feel like god, but maybe just ran good and don't know the difference yet. The important thing is just to keep at it. Keep grinding and keep reading the forums. After 6 months go back and read your early posts and you'll wonder who that guy was.
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Old 04-07-2014, 06:47 PM   #6
TheSamasaurus
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Re: 1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

Limping pre is good if your in LP with limpers before you. Personally I only limp is early positions with hands that can call if i get raised, and that remain +EV when i make this call. Suited connectors are great to limp UTG because you don't want bet and get 3-bet, but you also don't want to fold them either. I find that sometimes the online players give advice that, online, is true and really important, but live, where you can bank on getting 3-5 seeing the flop almost every hand, become less true, or simply bad advice. Personally i find limping in EP with hands that can stand a raise or in late position even with bad hands like 9To with limpers behind is +EV, because I know how to navigate post flop profitably. Plus everyone at the table thinks im loose because i see the flop 35-40% of the time, which can help me get paid off

In terms of your PFR not getting enough respect, I think that if your on a table where your getting called 3-5 people most of the time when you raise pre, one solution is ta just raise more and more when you have a hand you need to protect, and just keep raising more and more until you start to get 1 or 2 callers.

There have been tables where i would sit there until i got 99+ AJs+ and then raise to like 8-10bb, because if i raised any less then i would get 3-5 callers. These players would call me with KJo and better!~

If your raises start going through, i would just start raising less again, until you find the sweet spot. Often, you can just keep an eye on how loose the table is, and use that to help dictate your PFR size. Live only tho! don't do this online!

One thing to keep in mind too is that when your raises are getting alot of callers, you could also chose to go the other way with it and raise small but with hands that are above of your opponents range and play well in multiway pots. Suited connectors and all pairs are great for this. Instead of thinnking of getting super loose calls as a bad thing, think of it as an opportunity to make a lot of money. Your opponents are calling you with garbage, exploit it! These are the sort of tables where hitting 15-20bb/hr is totally doable. The more extreem your opponents errors, the more extreme your response to there errors should be! And learning to play in this way (responding to, if needed, drastically respond to changes in the table) can really help you improve too!

Last edited by TheSamasaurus; 04-07-2014 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:41 PM   #7
Cheers4Booze
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Re: 1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

I constantly struggle with this issue. One thing that has helped me is to realize the motivation of the typical LLSNL fish. They're not here to fold. They're on vacation or enjoying some leisure time. Winning poker is not fun or glamorous, therefore, they're less likely to do it or even care to learn what it is.

As far as limping vs. raising, to think 'never limp pre' is a dangerous blanket statement I think we should stay away from. Rather than ascribe to rules such as these, remember what the purpose of each play is.

A limp is in order, when:

- We have a speculative holding, that doesn't mind many opponents

- Our edge in equity isn't yet worth exploiting

- As at most LLSNL, folding equity, particularly pre, is at a minimum

- We can see the flop for 1bb. Seeing many cheap flops should be a strategic objective at LLSNL. Our skill advantage at hand reading, valuation and aggression should awarded us more than our fair share of pots.

A raise pre should be made with a holding that seeks to accomplish the majority of the following:
- Get more money in when we have the best of it. Are we ahead of our opponents range? If yes, get some more money in the middle. I don’t think of this an absolute comparison of the strength of each range, but rather consider the competitive advantages of position, initiative and post-flop playing ability in addition to equity comparison.

- Thin the field; the fewer opponents the more likely we are to win.

- Gain position: Having position is like getting the last at-bat in baseball.

- Take initiative: By staking a claim to the pot, others are more likely to afford it to us.

- Cultivate an image: LLSNL fish are easily irritated and will stack off light when agitated.

For me, I limp behind when I have a holding that is speculative and isn't hurt by the presence of a high number of opponents.
That being said, when I am at a table full of non-believing or non-thinking, non-folding fish, I am also going to limp behind with those hands on the fringe.

For i.e., while I would raise KQs OTB w/ a couple limpers ahead, I would limp behind w/ QJo. While the latter is not purely speculative and the former is not wholly a value holding, the difference between the two is great enough to warrant different actions.

This point of differentiation will be different for every table you sit at. I would encourage you to observe and learn the unique dynamics of each table. Watch the consequences of a given action. Predict what may be the results of your own action and take the line to achieve the desired end.

I’ve lost a TON of money when I have put too much stock in my opponent’s ability to fold. That being said, do not discount their ability to perceive what you are doing. Them calling you down light may very well be a function of their adjustment to your past action rather than their fish tendencies.

Finally, just pay attention. Observe and learn your opponents. Player dependency should be the number one consideration in making a given decision.

Last edited by Cheers4Booze; 04-07-2014 at 10:42 PM. Reason: spacing
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:07 PM   #8
eldiesel
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Re: 1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryno19 View Post
My preflop raise is pretty standard $15. And I regularly am getting 3-5 callers.
You need to adjust you're pf sizing to get HU. If $15 is getting 3+ callers, make your raise $18-$20, it's a guess-and-check to find that amount that will get you HU. If $15 were getting all folds, then drop it to $12 and see if that gets you HU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryno19 View Post
I've been trying to eliminate limping and over limping pre from my game based mostly on all the "never limp pre" comments that seem to be a reoccurring theme in most of my threads.
Limping is fine. You just need to know what you're going for when you limp. Don't limp JTs and then get attached to TPWK. You're seeing a flop cheaply with JTs to hit a straight or a flush, not a pair.

And even if you view limping as a bad thing, position > limping. Lately I've really been adamant about position more than ever. How many UTG hands I play vs. how many otb is like Prince Fielder's stolen base season average vs. Adam Dunn's strikeout average.
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:26 AM   #9
ryno19
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Really appreciate all the help, most everyone on here has been VERY helpful with critique and comments and advice. I did just order those books that were mentioned above. And to answer your question about how new I am to the game, I have even playing for a while now...always been pretty good. Used to win a lot of tournaments, but have changed over to cash and started keeping records in November. I've haven't had any losing months yet, with my best month being February when I made just under $7k. That was when I decided to eat more serious about it. I have always kind of known odds but never really put it together with equity or any other stats to make any decisions. Kind of just felt my way along on instincts. So then I started reading a lot and talking to local pros trying to pick their brains. And one of them told me to check out this site. And I've been reading EVERYTHING I can in my spare time. As a result I think March really suffered cause it was my worst month so far at $735 lol. Just have too much new information in my head and it isn't all clicking on the same page yet. The hands I post on here are the ones where I just know I got myself in a horrible spot and I know it at the time that I just played the hand HORRIBLY. So I post them on here to see all the mistakes I made. Honestly, I dot play all my hads that badly lol.

And I do plan on getting a coach in the near future, so I'm sure that will help also.

But once again I really appreciate all the insight I'm getting in here and am trying to incorporate the stuff that seems to be unanimously agreed on as well as the other stuff that just makes sense.
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:47 AM   #10
ryno19
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Oh and when I say I've always been good, I realize that isn't by the standards you all would use to rate my play. I just meant I have always won more than I lost. I was probably the guy at your table who always seemed to win in the most unorthodox ways. Better players would routinely say thing like "wow you played that really weird", "that was a really odd sized bet" "why did you play it that way" or my favorite, "I never know what to put you on cause you don't play like anyone I've ever seen"

...but I'm trying to eliminate those comments lol
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Old 04-08-2014, 02:13 AM   #11
CallMeVernon
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Re: 1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryno19 View Post
Oh and when I say I've always been good, I realize that isn't by the standards you all would use to rate my play. I just meant I have always won more than I lost. I was probably the guy at your table who always seemed to win in the most unorthodox ways. Better players would routinely say thing like "wow you played that really weird", "that was a really odd sized bet" "why did you play it that way" or my favorite, "I never know what to put you on cause you don't play like anyone I've ever seen"

...but I'm trying to eliminate those comments lol
This is probably why you're starting to slow down now.

Hand reading is one of the single most important aspects of poker. When your opponents think you can "show up with anything", you have an edge over them, because they're more likely to make mistakes against you.

What you should be figuring out is not how to change your game to make it more conventional, but to understand why your old method worked. Maybe some of it worked for solid theoretical reasons and you should keep it and add on to it; and maybe some of it worked because you ran good and it wouldn't keep working indefinitely. Your goal should be to learn enough about poker so that you can analyze which is which, and improve on your own game, not strip down and build up a totally new one.
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:22 PM   #12
Jake Stanton
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Re: 1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryno19 View Post
I'm very selective in EP what I will raise with, but in LP I'm raising with pretty much 89sc+ QJ+ any suited broadway cards and any PP ... Is this too wide?
in loose games where we are getting 3+ callers i find it best to play passive preflop and get the money in post flop when we connect. bloating the pot with small PP's, suited connectors is just burning money if they are sticky post flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryno19 View Post
I've been trying to eliminate limping and over limping pre from my game based mostly on all the "never limp pre" comments that seem to be a reoccurring theme in most of my threads. It's pretty much gotten to the point where if I can't raise pre then I'm folding it,...
on a weak/tight table that strategy will produce the chips. against fit or fold villains i would open up my raise range but not on the loose tables you describe.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:44 AM   #13
Jim_Beam
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Re: 1/3 very loose/passive do I need to change what I'm doing?

I think it was Mike Caro?

Tight game? Play loose

Loose game? Play tight.

easygame

Your range sounds way too large - tighten up.
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