V a standard straightforward, fairly tight player. No tricks here.

V and hero 600 effective.

Passive table with a lot of limpers. I'm almost the only pf raiser unless aces, kings and maybe AK by another player. So my image is kind of aggressive in their eyes I guess.

2 limper, I raise to 15 in HJ with AA (I'd say 10 was a standard raise this game), Button cold calls as does V in BB and both limpers - 5 to flop

Flop(75) K82

V bets out 40, folds to me, I call, others fold.

Turn(155) 2

V bets 50 , I call.

River(255) 5

V bets 75, hero..

Raise to $175. Fold to reraise/Shove. Too much value from AK/KQ/KJ to miss here esp with your looser image. KK prolly 3! pre so only hands we really fear are 3 combos of 88 and 1 combo 22 from this tighter player and I imagine this type of player normally goes for a c/r with these hands on this dry flop/turn.

Call. Can't see worse calling a raise.

Could be over playing KJ or KQ or even AK, but could also have 88 and just suckering you in. Not folding for the price. If we are going to raise prefer flop.

Call, he really likes his hand. Even tho you see a 5-way flop, V in BB doesn't want to wait and see if original raiser (you) or perhaps the button will bet the flop as a steal. He really likes his hand. Not wanting to risk checking thru, he bets about 1/2 pot, sizing says he wants a call. Turn pairs the board and reduces the chances of him having 22 in hand cause it is unlikely he would bet quads here, too afraid you fold. Instead he bets less than 1/3 pot, he definitely wants a call. You could stab at it here with a strong raise, but I'm guessing he would just call or shove. River is value bet in his eyes and he expects call. I would be surprised if he shows anything other than AK,KK,88,AA. Call if you want, he must have some % bluffs in his range, but you should be mostly beat.

I think you can really discount AA and KK here as he most likely 3bets those pre.

Exactly where are you extracting value?

as played, with a river raise?

Turn and river bets are pretty small for a boat and only 88 makes much sense, I guess K2s.

As played I would want the raise to look bluffier, maybe 275. K with a good kicker could easily pay it off.

I like the line of calling it down but might raise turn instead of river once I see the small bet, try to build it up.

Raise/fold 185ish at first thought to get value from Kx if he can lead a king into the field. If not just call. If his only leading range is 2p of a set (22,88) then just call. But based on his smaller bet sizing I’m inclined to think his range is AK, KQ, KJ type maybe even K8.


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Let's take a worst case scenario: villain only barrels 3 streets with TPTK+ and he cold calls K2s, K8o, KK and AA preflop.

We are up against the following combos:
- 6 combos of AK
- 9 combos of K8
- 2 combos of K2s
- 1 combo of 22
- 3 combos of 88
- 3 combos of KK
- (1 combo of AA which we will ignore)
= 24 combos total, 15 of which we beat.

You can play around with that a bit, maybe include a few KQ combos (there are 12 total), maybe take away some K8o and KK combos, etc. Either way, you should come to the conclusion that:
1. We are ahead of more than 50% of villain's range on the river
2. Villain is unlikely to fold TPGK to a small river raise
3. Villain is unlikely to 3bet the river without trips+

Therefore, I prefer raising the river for value. We have $495 behind and villain just bet $75 into a $255 pot. I'd raise to $200 here and fold to a jam.

Villain is a "standard straightforward, fairly tight player. No tricks here" player and you think he could have K8 or K2s? But he cant have KQ/KJ?

Does villain fire 3 barrels in a 5way pot with KJ?

If yes, then that just proves my point even further: that we can raise river for value.

I can see K2 and K8s since he probably expect the limpers to also come in especially since H image is aggressive. Ime, these V’s adjustment is to call wider and hope to hit as oppose to raise vs aggressive opponents.

Furthermore, even tho his K2/K8 combos might be a few and far in between, given the line he took I don’t think we can complexly discount them.

Yes his bet sizing is small, but they don’t really have a clue as to how to properly bet. From their perspective as long as they make progressively larger bets it’s a “good bet”



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I think those advocating to just call on the river are over thinking the 5 way nature of this hand. First off the hand is 5 ways only on the flop. After the flop its just him and the PFR and the passive way hero played the hand (which I don't disagree with) it looks like a stubborn QQ/JJ. But 2nd a lot of people will bet TPGK on a dry flop like this just to get rid of the rift raft. If by the turn it was still three or four ways then I would assign more strength to villains betting.

I'm still inclined to think that villain doesn't lead out 3 streets with KJ - at least not most of the time. Maybe he'll bet flop, bet turn and x/call river, but is he really sick enough to thin value bet 3 streets here with KJ (given his lack of aggression preflop, I'm inclined to think not).

KQ is a possibility (even then, I'll discount a few combos that would x/call river once the pot gets this large), but I'm really doubting KJ shows this much aggression from this particular player.

I didnt say you cant raise the river. I said villain doesnt have K8 or K2

I'm in the small raise and fold to 3bet camp. Too much value in a typical 1/3 game to just call.

I don't think this makes sense. Pot is already large enough and we have VERY good SD value. Raise will never be called by worse IMO and clearly raised by better. Combine those two and I don't see a ton of value in raising here.

"V is fairly tight, straightforward. No tricks here." Bets three streets....what does he put us on that we can now raise for value?

I think there is room for reasonable people to disagree with regard to whether or not a raise will be called by worse. IMHO, Hero has a bit of an aggressive image and often I have found that with AK/KQ/KJ/K8 Vs will do one of those "I know I'm beat but I have to call" moves. I really don't think the curiosity call can be totally discounted, especially on a totally dry board like this.

With respect to the bolded, not sure I understand what you mean by "Pot is already large enough". If there is a $100 bill right in front of us and a 5$ bill right next to it, do we just pick up the $100 bill and ignore the $5 bill? If we know V won't bluff-raise (which seems like a fair assumption given V's description), not sure why the bolded would be a consideration on whether or not to call or raise.

Meaning losing the pot by trying to get additional value and being raised off a winner is much worse than just winning the pot now. And we don't ever "know" V won't bluff raise.

^^ Wait a second, before you relied on the "V is fairly tight, straightforward, no tricks here" to say he can't have AK/KQ/KJ, but now you're suggesting it is within the realm of possibilities that V will 3-bet bluff us on the river. I think straightforward players are more likely to bet/call a tiny river raise with TPGK than to 3! bluff on the river after betting the flop and turn (and getting called), but perhaps we have different player groups.

I don't think I have ever seen a 3! bluff on the river in my 1/2 games period though, let alone from straightforward players.

Villain is offering 4.4:1, the best price he has offered all hand. Smells more like a good hand trying to get value out of a stubborn hand than the few boat combos that make any sense opting for small but secure value. If V had checked river, what would our value bet size have been... Like 150? V bet half of that, can't let him block our value with his mini bets. Earlier I said raise bigger but now I'd prefer raise to 180-200 and fold to a shove as others have said. If V is capable of turning a made hand into a bluff here or was running some insane small-caliber 3 barrel move with air then bless his heart.

Hero suddenly raising river is going to be confusing for V, enough where he might think H is "making a move" -- that's part of why I originally said raise bigger on the river. It's an extremely polarizing raise from H so I think it is V's gut that will make the decision to call, more so than the size of the bet.

I never ranged V with those hands. My only point is the risk of being pushed off our under-repped hand on the river is too high given the pot size (and our calling equity in it) to risk it by trying to extract thin value with one pair here. Only way I raise AA on this hand is I am willing to call the 3! from V. And I am not.

Fair enough, I just think the odds of us getting 3! bluffed are very close to zero, so it wouldn't factor into my decision. Basically if V 3! me on the river I think AA loses >99% of the time and I am very comfortable folding it. Still leaves open the question of whether or not V calls with worse more than he calls with better, and for the reasons I stated before I just think he calls with worse a little bit more.

Cool. We just disagree on the last part but probably a decent margin. That being said, extracting thin value has never been the best part of my game so perhaps I need to re-evaluate a bit.