Uncapped 1/3, heros main game. This hand takes place after midnight, 6 handed.


Villain 1 UTG+1 $500 Big fish in the game. Very loose pre and post, but rarely aggressive unless he have a big made hand- aka business as usual for 90 percent of the live low stakes population. Chases all kinds of draws on regular basis,classic loose/passive live fish.

Villain 2 Cutoff $800 Very experienced long term winning reg, with a tight rep in general. Is in for more than $1000 this game due to him being sucked out on and bricking draws, but have clawed his way back up even though he have been steaming. Little bit of relevant ongoing dynamic though between villain and hero: Villain have been sitting directly to heros right for the last 3-4 games, wich have resulted in him getting quite steamed up and verbally have declared he is sick of hero hammering on him. Villain have a leak of limping too many hands pre+ having a sizing tell when he opens (increased amount of 3 betting from hero as a result), and then proceeding to limp/call raises too much out of position, wich hero also have exploited pretty relentlessy these games. He is on to the fact that hero is isoraising his limps alot, but he doesent understand that the right adjustment is to limp less hands and strengthen his range- instead he is limp/calling all raises pre and then spazzing out from time to time post with various lines in an attempt to punish heros aggression. He will limp/call hands as weak as 6-7 off and 3-5 suited to give you an example regards to his range.


Hero button $320 Not much to say, clean winning image. On the first buyin, was up to $700 for some profit early on but ran KK into AA and lost some back on that cooler.


On to the hand. Villain 1 limps, villain 2 overlimps and hero makes it $20 with KJ. They both calls as expected.

Pot: $63.Flop comes J88. They both check to hero. I C-bet $35 as i will do with a high frequenzy here in position 3 ways after raising pre. Fish villain calls, and villain 2 asks how much hero is playing- then he announces $150. Hero?

Very experienced winning reg l/calling 67o and 35o??

Just fold to the x/r if he has the offsuit 8x combos, and the fish is still in the hand. If it were HU and you thought he was full of it then you can call and let him spaz but three way for me tips the scale to just letting him have it. I could be wrong and if it's a call I doubt it's a hugely winning one.

Yes, he is winning a good amount every year and is very good at destroying fish. Adjusting well to other winning regs not so much. Mostly because 95 percent of the playerpool isnt exploiting him properly regarding his leaks, so he usually gets away with it.

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Like our seat. Ha, curious as to how seats are gotten in a game like this and how do you always manage to have the best seat on him?

I just overlimp due to expected result will create an SPR of 5 and we'll basically be forced to commit postflop with TP (and yet I hate doing that with this hand). But if it's all part of our image / metagame and we must raise, I would choose smaller to give us a more manageable spot postflop.

I'm guessing we had a plan in mind for how we were going to react to a check/raise (and you're posting for clarification) since I think that's the spot we find ourselves in a lot. With our aggro cbetty image, and our dynamic with this opponent (where he sees us as FOS plus will play back), and the committing SPR, and the drawyness of the board, and the fact the fish probably has lol little, I'm guessing our plan was to commit. So now the question is whether we jam it in now versus attempt to look weak and hope he jams into us on the turn. He'll only have $150 to jam into $400, plus there are a lotta stupid cards that could fall on the turn. I aim for jamming now.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Every underground game/club have their own hidden facebook group- where the games are being announced. Then the players can reserve their seat (number 1-9), and also see who is expected to the game in each seat so i can decide if the lineup if worth playing or not.

To be honest i am not that used to how people react to a more aggressive image (usually i have a more tight or nitty image if you will),as my ramped up aggression/exploitation against couple of the winning regs is decently fresh and only have been going on for 3-4 weeks.I have noticed though over some time now that people have somewhat different wider ranges against me, and the amount of spazz moves from especially winning experienced regs is increasing when they play hands against me. Not surprising, just something i am aware of. Sometimes i catch them bluffing so i see their spazz that way, and sometimes i fold the best hand only to have them show me their spazz bluff. This ramped up attacks on the regs is a part of me both growing as a player seeing more clear edges against other winning regs, and a part of a strategy choice ive made to keep my winrate longterm in the games for the future. If i want to keep making money in the years to come, i have made the conclusion that i have to be able to fight with the regs to a bigger exctent- in addition to slicing fish.

So i am really looking for input on how to adjust properly to this kinds of new dynamic, ranging people more properly in spots where i am more aggressive than before. Especially i would guess that LAG players who are more used to having a more aggro attacking image than me over time can contribute alot to this topic.

No actually... we are not finding ourselves in this spot a lot.

V2's play so far is to l/c vs. Hero. Now all of a sudden we see resistance on a board where Hero has very little equity.

Trivial fold. Zero reason to stack off here.

The mistake in this hand is that Hero should have checked back the flop and risked seeing another street for free. Dodge a bad turn and use your position advantage to see what your villains do. Fairly serious mistake to bet this flop.

Why woudnt we C-bet this flop in position when we have a very accurate grip on our opponents (wide) ranges, and we can get called by shitloads of worse hands with a flop bet?

Neither of my opponents have AJ or JJ+ with the limp-call pre line based on my extended experience with them- so if we are beat here its only if one of them have 8x.

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We have no redraw here, so I'm happy to dodge a bad turn before putting in any money.

Also, when we get called down with worse, hopefully the villain(s) with history will learn we don't always flop cbet TPGK.

How are we not in this spot a lot? Gil says villains have been limp/calling preflop against him wide and then often (vs somewhat, I dunno exactly the degree?) spazzing versus him postflop due to his wide raise/cbetting range.

If we're going to play LAGgy, we're going to have to live to die by the sword. TPGK in SPR 5 pots on drawy boards versus villains spazzing against us is hardly "little equity"; it's the nuts (well, enough of the time).

I would definitely lean to checking back the flop myself but that's me and my super nit image; in Gil's case, if he's betting every made hand and every draw and air, well, he's probably going to have to be fine with going with it.

Gifyou'retakingthevariancetrainroute,thenstrapinan drideit,imoG

No, we don't have to live to die by the sword. We play LAGgy cuz we can get our $$$ in good when we want to.

W/e... maybe "from time to time" means something different in Norse.

[x] limp calls 67o and 35o
[x] plays 1/3 games
[ ] makes money
[ ] is pro

You might be getting Postled if true. If you’re c-betting a high FQ on this flop then your size is too big. As played, probably just fold. You have 8s, overpairs, FDs and straight draws that can continue.

Guy should have an 8 all the time w the presence of the fish. Laughable he's pretending to be more concerned about your stack than the fish with 500. It's all about V2 v V1, get out of the way - his bluffing frequency should be lower, either can have an 8, etc.

The flip side, is that V1 would 'always' raise trips and V2 is ready to gii w any kind of equity AND you bet flop knowing full well you might choose to stack off with this combo given how wide continuing ranges might be, even if they raise with them, plus not deep...

Prob more of a wgaf gameflow call-off, but armchair QBing it's a bet-fold.

Thanks for chiming in.Follow up question if you dont mind.

How do you gauge the likelyhood of villain fastplaying draws or spazzing out vs the amount of times he have 8x? You put alot of weight regarding live reads and/or gameflow? Or do you go more by a game theory baseline,counting combos and so forth?

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hand is played fine. folding flop c/r. if he's going to c/r 2 people with less equity than us, good for him, he'll do it eventually on a flop that we can't fold on.

re cbetting vs not cbetting: too many players have too much crap here. gotta cbet and get calls from worse Jx, club/straight draws, occasional TT/99. i'm not waiting around so Tx/9x/77/76/75/65 might pick up equity to call a turn bet

re cbet sizing: meh. i get that in a perfect world, we're cbetting smaller because Vs understand we're cbetting a lot of our range because the board is very dynamic and many turn cards improve our equity, but this is 1/3 and live poker. we can cbet small when we miss and cbet slightly bigger when we hit and no one will really ever notice at this level.

As I say, I'm never in this spot cuz I'm taking the super nitty overlimp preflop / if-nitty-me-is-raising-preflop-I'm-checking-back-flop route. But isn't Gil going to get steamrolled if he's opening up a huge range, cbetting / double barrelling a lot, and then folding anything but the nuts as players spazz / etc. against his aggroness? In small SPR / drawy boards to boot? His opponents highly doubt he has TP on this board, no?

GcluelessLAGnoobG

If Hero has a wide range, V frequently c/r as a bluff will get crushed, DUCY?

No, I don't. If Gil has a wide range, he almost never has anything on most flops. Yes, once and a while his aggro 8x flops well here and that works out good, but otherwise he forfeits every other pot (including, apparently, when he flops TP on a drawy board).

Gwe'rewaitingfortrips?G

If Hero has a wide range, he can hit most flops.

This is why I'm >90% sure you're trolling.

So what if we can hit most flops? We just hit this one too, and yet we're folding cuz apparently we're waiting for trips+?

ETA: Let's say instead of Gil playing this hand, it's nitty me. So I'm perceived to have TT+/AK here. About half my range is made up of two pair+ and overs/sometimewithdraw. I'm probably not going to get played back at too much here (unless people are trying to get me to fold my overpair, which I might do cuz I'm a nit). Buy Gil has ~ATC and almost never has anything on most flops cuz he rarely starts with a pair (although once and a blue moon he's just luckboxed his 8x into trips). And yet we're saying Gil should only continue when he has 8x, even though his opponent thinks he mostly has airballed this and is just doing his standard "I raz / I cbet" thing?

GImustbemissingyourpointG

Think about it... maybe you can figure out why having most flops in Hero's range is important when V is considering c/r.

First of all, especially given the dynamic OP describes with V2, I think we should be sizing up our raises preflop when V2 limps. If they are limping a wide range and calling raises with most of that range, we can exploit the living hell out of them by sizing up with a reasonably strong range. I would consider making our iso-raise as big as $30, possibly more if we find that we get a lot of calls.

Secondly, a J88tt board is not one I would be c-betting with very much of my range, especially against two loose-players. It is really wet, and it hits a loose-passive's calling range pretty hard. So I would dial my c-bets back to hands like 8X, top pair, overpairs, club draws, and T9. The wetness of the board means we should bet larger, but the multiway pot means we should size down a bit. I think between half and 2.3x pot is in the right ballpark.

Here we actually have TPGK, so we should bet. OP's size of $35 is 55% of pot, in the right ballpark.

V1 calls, likely chasing a draw. Maybe they have a jack. V2 puts in a big raise. They may or may not be spazzing out against you, but they also have V1 to contend with. Would they play this way with a worse jack?

I think the three-way aspect of this pot, with V1 already putting money in on the flop, reduces the spazz factor. I think I would fold, and I wouldn't lose sleep over it. There are going to be better spots for taking either villain's money.

Lapi, this is the read we have. The contentious part may be exactly how often "from time to time" is. But from where I sit, Villain thinks Gil is FOS and is going to attempt to steal pots off him a reasonable amount of the time because he thinks Gil simply never has it. Villain doesn't seem like the typical OMC nit I'm-a-gonna-flop-my-set-and-then-show-you-what's-what kinda guy. TPGK on a drawy board in a low SPR pot qualifies as "has it" for me in this dynamic, and if we're simply waiting for trips+ then I think it's going to be a long night playing this way (i.e. bloating pots with mediocre hands and simply handing them to our opponent over and over again because we didn't flop the ~nuts).

But we'll definitely run into 8x here once and a while too. And admittedly having the fish still in the pot does change things a bit. Obviously this is going to be a high variance ride.

ETA: Would also be interested in Gil's take on Villain's range here. Every Jx (and can he even have a better Jx)? Every flush draw? Every OESD? And what would he actually do with an 8x? Would he slowplay and attempt to tarp Gil into punting? Or does the presence of the fish maybe make him play those more straightforward?

GimoG

Why are you acting like we're the big stack and that V2 is targeting us and not V1?

Why are you acting like we're HU with V2?

Already admitted that fish involved does indeed change things. But not quite enough for me.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I can confirm that villain 2 have spazzed out against me several times over the last 3-4, weeks. Its hard to gauge when and how often he does it, but suddenly he gets enough of me raising his limps wich definetely tilts him. Last week he check- raised turn allin for 100 blinds with 6-7 off against me after i raised pre on the button and double barreled with AK on AJ6-Q board. So he limp called 6-7 off pre OOP and just blasted off here with basically no equity. I bet/folded the turn because one pair is usually never good when he ships it on a board like this- and asked him as i mucked if he was making a move, then he tabled the bluff.

Regarding his range here in this hand i think he never does this with Jx.He is not the type to overvalue weak top pair hands. If he have like J10 or J9 here he will just call 100 percent of the time. He also never have JJ or any other overpair cause he always fastplays those pre. His check/raise range is likely 8x combos wich he surely will fastplay 3 ways, and alot of different draws. He always chooses this kind of big sizing with his flushdraws for example, so i would assume his range have alot of flushdraws+ combodraws in it that he will choose to fastplay x amount of the time.

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