I sat down about two orbits ago, and save for the previous hand, folded everything.

Villain 1 is a young, 20-something kid who doesn't have very much experience at all. It seems like he's only played poker a handful of times. One hand, he limped in early position, someone raised, and a 3rd player 3-bet to 80. When it got back to him, he tanked for like a minute, looked like he was going to call, then reluctantly mucked. Pretty sure he's a massive station.

Villain 2 is an older asian man. I saw him play a hand against another player where V2 raised OTB to $20, SB 3-bet to $80 (I think this was the same hand actually), he flatted, and the flop came out A-J-9. V2 moved two stacks of red forward like he was going to snap-call while SB was tanking. SB finally shoves for $120 and V2 folded. SB showed KK.

The hand prior:

I have 88 in the SB. I call an $8 raise from V1. Four players. Flop comes out Q-8-6cc. I check-raise V1 to $80, lead $120 on a 10 turn, and snap call the shove. He shows A-Q no clubs.

The actual hand:

V1 has $120 left after doubling me up. V2 has $300. I cover.

V1 is tilting for sure, and the next hand V2 makes it $15, I call OTB with 10-10, and V1 3-bets to $85. V2 calls the 3-bet but doesn't look too happy about it. It's hard to tell if he's acting or genuinely distressed.

I am 100000000% sure I am absolutely crushing V1's range. V2 I am less sure about.

Hero....?

What position is V2 in?

This is a fold. Obviously, you don't even have close to odds to set mine. It would be nice to get some of V1's dead money, but you've got to go through V2 to do it. Regardless of how he was acting, he just stuck in $85 pre with a player behind him left to act. He's pretty strong.

If you just flat pre, what are you going to do on the flop?

You could try to shove and push V2 out, but since you don't have a strong read on V2, you'd be risking your stack on a guess. I don't think we can construct a range for V2 where we'd have enough confidence to risk 150BBs.

Fold > shove > flat

well to me its a shove or fold situation. if u call spr goes for v2 close to 1. so u are actually setmining. if you shove you most likely flipping with V1 if V2 does not call and if he does you are most likely againist JJ+ . I think here a disciplined fold is the play.

Well, if V2 is giving us the green light to bluff him off JJ/QQ, or AQ, then let's just shove. Trusting that you are right about V1. If we can make V2 make an incorrect fold against us, let's do it. This is pretty much a physical tell/feel thing though. I would only do it against players I know.

I once had this exact situation happen when I had TT on the button. A tilting player bet, I called on the button with TT, and an old TAG 3-bet from the blinds, the tilting player raised, the old TAG wasn't acting too strong or intense so I reraised all-in, and the old TAG made what looked like a "standard" fold. The board came J high and the old TAG groaned that he would have made a set. The board came with no ace/straight, I flipped over my TT at the end and the other guy flips over...AT! Everyone was shocked .

This situation is a little different positionally, but the dynamic is the same. If we know this guy will reliably fold whatever he has when he acts like this, it arr-in time.

If he were being really hammy about it, I would assume he has the nuts. Various regs at my casino would sigh, shake their head, and say "all-in" when they have aces.

hero jams

this is one of those weird spots where you can be betting for value and a bluff at the same time

v2's range is going to be heavily weighted towards overcards because it's hard to have a pocket pair combinations-wise. if he has 2 overs you would like him to fold even though you're a slight favorite.

but maybe v2 thinks hey c/jam IP is a pretty suspect line, you're probably light, and calls with AQ or whatever. that's fine too, you're still profiting off his call, although you profit a bit more when he folds and v1 has <40% against you

and if this is one of those rare times he does have JJ+ you're only losing like $160 in sklansky bux. pot's big and you got outs.

the important part is being sure that V1 can be taking this line wide (i think that's a reasonable assumption given history + his sizing) because if there's a minuscule chance he's wide then jamming is suicidal.

players are generally kinda bad about getting, like, "tunnel vision" on players they perceive as bad/fishy. people will do really asinine stuff multi-way if there's a player they think sucks involved in the hand. so if you think everyone else thinks v1 is a big idiot, then v2's r/c range is a lot wider than it would normally be.

This spots w/e not that ingesting if u call it's barely +ev

I like jamming as well. We may fold out JJ but then again if V is thinking about our range at all we dont look much like AA/KK.

I like jamming bc we realize our equity against overcards like AK/AQ. If V2 has AK and we call, we end up shutting down if A/K comes, while if no A/K comes, then V2 folds and we miss value.

GRUNCH:

What position is V2 in? To me, that makes a bit of difference here.

Initial raising ranges in 1/3nl are pretty tight, typically JJ+, AK, AQ so when V2 raises then calls the 3-bet his range should be JJ/QQ, AK. I seriously doubt V2 folds this especially after we don't 3-bet him.

One of my biggest leaks is that I sometimes get tunnel vision on a fish that is bleeding and flapping around in the water and is just ripe for the kill. So I target that fish without paying attention to the other sharks...

IN this case, I think we may be having tunnel vision as concerns the tilted player and are forgetting that V2 raised and then flatted a substantial 3-bet. It's seriously doubtful he is raise/calling with 99/88 right? So his range has got to be JJ+, AK, AQ and that range crushes us.

So fold.

Obviously if we were heads up against V1 then I'm all for jamming, but with V2's raise/flat I just don't think we can push him out unless he is raising really light (which against knowing his position would be useful).

If V2 was in EP or MP then I'm easily folding here. If V2 was in the HJ or CO and had been raising light.... then I can probably get behind a jam. Also depends on sizing tells from V2... hmmmm.... the more I think about it, the more I'm actually not a big fan of a jam here.

I think I just let this one go *shrug*

Hero folds.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where you flat OTB then jam to isolate & fold out V2 unless we know V2 is an unobservant drooler. What is your 3b range here? It's hard to imagine you'd flat then jam QQ+, correct?

OTOH, in one of the previous hands V2 was shown to give off false tells. In this current hand he looks "uncomfortable". Can we assume weak=strong as well?

All-in-all with the weak=strong vibe & because we can't rep a super-strong hand here, I lay it down.

Just thinking about my notes over the years...

the most trouble I get myself into with 99-JJ hands is deciding to set mine them then reversing that decision and then deciding to play them for value.

When we initially call the raise, we are more or less making a decision to set mine our TT. Now, all of a sudden we are wondering if we should play them for value and jam...

Speaking for myself, I've lost the most money when preflop I decide to set mine then later I decide to play for value. Of course things change and board textures change yada yada yada,

just sayin...

I thought that this was a point worth making. Flip flopping on whether or not to play middling hands strong or not is one of my problem areas. So now, I take a more firm approach with going with my initial line. So in this case, since we initially planned to just set mine with them, I just let it go...

If anything, the new information we've obtained makes the case that we are behind does it not? At best, V2's range has narrowed to a range that has significant equity vs our TT. Even if we assume V1's range is 20%, that plus V2's narrowed range puts our TT in bad shape. It's hopeful thinking that we can fold out AK or JJ from his range. I don't even think he folds AQ. So meh, I just fold...

For me I think a lot of this comes down to V2's position / how many limpers to him. If he's in EP, or if he's raised after multiple limpers, I'm leaning towards laying it down. If the fishy V1 is the only limper and V2 is in LP, I'm leaning more towards shoving.

GmisplayedTTatleastoncelastnight,Iunderstandyourpa inG

Why does flatting a raise mean we are playing to set mine? I don't think this is true at all.

Regardless if he's acting or not about looking distressed, because he flats, I feel like he's willing to play post-flop with you, which encourages the fold that everyone is talking about. If he were to have shoved, then we call with great equity, knowing V1 is calling too.

There were two players in between myself and V2, and I don't recall the pot being opened before it got to V2.

The false tell V2 gave in the previous hand was definitely acting. If it were me in the hand against him, I would have shoved on that tell alone, regardless of my holding, after watching him do that. He was obviously trying to discourage a bet.

In the current hand, his hesitation seemed genuine, but I just haven't played with him enough to have a strong feeling.

What hands raise $15 then call a raise to $85, and how do those range of hands fair against TT?

Since the raise is substantial there is no fear of giving odds to set mine if V flats. So V should feel no need to ISO.
I do admit however that there are definitely some scenarios that could be favorable for our tens, namely lowball flops. However 65%+ of the time an overcard is hitting the flop.

Basically, in order for us to win here a whole lot of things need to happen in concert and this is just not a good spot for TT.

yes i would 4b with plans to gii on flops, given loose tilting villain