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Old 05-23-2018, 02:34 AM   #1
6bet me
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1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

1/3, 6-handed, $300 effective.

Hero is dealt Ah 5s in BB
4 folds
70 year old Asian man limps $3 SB
Hero raises $15 BB
Villain calls $15 SB

Flop ($27) is Js 7s 3c

Villain donks $15
Hero ???

How do you deal with this?
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:39 AM   #2
russianbear13
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Fold?
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:10 AM   #3
Gettingood
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Raising with As5x seems good since we can barrel 2,4,6,5 and spades as bluffs and vbet A.

I’m not raising Ah5s though. It can be used as a bluff but then you end up overbluffing here very easily.

Floating might be good too depending on the villain but then I’d like to know little bit more about him.A high might very well be the best hand right now but we have hard time realizing equity vs aggressive opponents. In a vacuum I’m rather indifferent about raising,calling and folding this combo. Maybe float this but fold Ax5h/d.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:26 AM   #4
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Okay so I decided to float the flop with the intention of stabbing turns if it checked to me.

Hero calls $15

Turn ($54) is Js 7s 3c 4h

Villain bets $15 again
Hero ???

I don't think we can ever fold now that we've picked up a double gutter. The question is: do we flat and take our equity, or do we raise as a semibluff, since villain's bet size seems to indicate weakness?
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:33 AM   #5
Gettingood
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Definitely raising here to ~3x and planning on barreling many rivers. That is if villain isn’t a station. Then just call
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:46 AM   #6
WereBeer
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Check pre, AP fold flop. Poker is EZ.

I feel like this is one of those hands that has us donking off half our stack into stubborn QJo.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:48 AM   #7
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

I read his bet as weakness, so I decided to raise as a semibluff. My plan was to barrel most rivers too.

Hero raises to $55
Villain calls $55

River ($155) is Js 7s 3c 4h 5s
(Sorry my hand was actually As 5h not Ah 5s)

Villain donks $65
Hero ???

Do we bluff catch, bluff raise or just give up?
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:02 AM   #8
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Okay so I decided to float the flop with the intention of stabbing turns if it checked to me.

Hero calls $15

Turn ($54) is Js 7s 3c 4h

Villain bets $15 again
Hero ???

I don't think we can ever fold now that we've picked up a double gutter. The question is: do we flat and take our equity, or do we raise as a semibluff, since villain's bet size seems to indicate weakness?

Fancy play syndrome once again. Floating the flop with raggy A high and zero equity to back it up with, this is just spew- its no other way to sugarcoat it.
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:12 AM   #9
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Fancy play syndrome once again. Floating the flop with raggy A high and zero equity to back it up with, this is just spew- its no other way to sugarcoat it.
Ace high = SDV against draws
1 overcard = good against TP donks
Ace of spades = backdoor NFD
5 = Backdoor straight draw

Combine that with the fact that we have position and we're getting almost 3:1 on a call. And we have the opportunity to bluff later streets if villain is capped (and most players are capped when they donk half pot on the flop).

How is this FPS? Are you folding everything below TP to a half pot donk bet?
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:12 AM   #10
Gettingood
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

I’m folding this river for sure. I just dont think we are almost ever good here. We are also not deep enough for a bluff to work. Maybe shoving 2x pot or something. Maybe not in live games against this villain though puking when villain snaps w/ 6x

I mean this is one of our worst hands we get here with. we also have the nutblocker so this is one of our best bluffs here BUT I just don’t see villain ever folding weird 6x hands he might have.

Wp if you folded river imo.
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:14 AM   #11
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Yeah I ultimately folded river. Thank you.
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:15 AM   #12
Petrucci
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Ace high = SDV against draws
1 overcard = good against TP donks
Ace of spades = backdoor NFD
5 = Backdoor straight draw

Combine that with the fact that we have position and we're getting almost 3:1 on a call. And we have the opportunity to bluff later streets if villain is capped (and most players are capped when they donk half pot on the flop).

How is this FPS? Are you folding everything below TP to a half pot donk bet?
I am not folding everything below top pair, i will continue with mid pairs and decent draws like flushdraws to name couple of hands.

But not ragge A high with no real equity whatsoever, talking about A high and backdoor draws is grasping after strawman.
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:26 AM   #13
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Fwiw when I used to play 2nl zoom on Stars, I would just autoraise all donk bets on the flop for like a pot sized raise. It got through more than 80% of the time.

I'm not sure if this would work live though. Some people seem to donk fairly strong hands at low stakes live, so I'm really not sure what the best way to exploit them is, except to know that the times when they don't donk, they're probably very air heavy.
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:31 AM   #14
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

5bb pfr seems excessive. You're already guaranteed to play HU in position postflop if he calls, so I'd not really be trying to make him fold pre and not trying to build a massive pot either, as we seldom hit anything very strong.

Floating with As5h is standard (I would fold with the suits reversed). You have to call or raise his flop bet at least 2/3 of the time, otherwise he can donk profitably with any two (which some villains do on low boards). When he bets 15 again ott, yeah it looks weak, but imo just flat again. It's definitely +EV as you are getting direct odds.

AP, fold river. He could have a flush or a straight, or he could just have some stupid hand like J8. I don't think he's ever giving you credit though.

"I put you on Ace King."
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:57 AM   #15
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me View Post
Fwiw when I used to play 2nl zoom on Stars, I would just autoraise all donk bets on the flop for like a pot sized raise. It got through more than 80% of the time.
2NL = nitsville though
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Old 05-23-2018, 05:21 AM   #16
Gettingood
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

I know I probably can’t convince you to change your game and you no doubt will continue doing well in poker with out it but I stand by my earlier statement: This combo works best as a raise vs donkbet otf. I mean I’m uncapped otf while he most certainly is not. Heros range has all the same strong hands than villains but also considerably more great hands like AJ, QQ+ and nuts.

This means that hero gets to do quite a bit of raising on this flop and while we do have plethora of flushdraws, we don’t want to raise them all since we’re ip, we have stronger range,skill edge and most importantly way more equity than with our other draws.

So then there’s the obvious calling hands like pairs. I’d much rather have As5o here than 22 tbh and infact would easily fold 22 here.

That leaves us with strong and big value range filled with good but not great flushdraws, sets, Top2, JQ+,QQ+. That isn’t clearly enough bluffs. Then we add what ever gs combos we raise pre. That might be alot or not very much depending on raising strat you have pre.
Say we check 98,T7,T9 pre so that leaves us with 45,56 (43 also works as a raise) combos only and I’m not raising all of them pre vs this villain.

The point I’m trying to make is that if we don’t add other flop raises we have simply too much value in our range. This time it’s not about balance but making money with our bluffs. Balance is just an added sidebonus vs this villain.



As far as floating say Ax5s here we aply the same logic but on turn where we still have some JJ, AsAx,KsKx along with weaker flopcalls that now either hit a draw,pair+draw,2p,nuts or Ahigh flushdraws. Now when villain bets we again want to raise parts of our range. (Lighter vs small bets) We do that by raising many of our slowplays and new good hands while calling ui middlepairs, and Jx. Then we want bluffs again. I’d first look for hands that are too weak or just good enough to call and consider blockers slightly. (Not terribly relevant since villains range is quite wide) those hands include our flop floats like Ax5s.

Hope this helps to clarify my position. All discussion is appreciated.
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:44 AM   #17
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

I could be off but i think this is a flush a large percentage of the time. This is a population read of old asians imo

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Old 05-23-2018, 10:12 AM   #18
Joey913
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

It would be helpful to have more reads than just "he likes to donk." Has anyone raised his donks and how has he responded?

I would check my option pre. As played, raise flop. As played, raise turn.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:53 AM   #19
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Hand is well played
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:41 AM   #20
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Fancy play syndrome once again. Floating the flop with raggy A high and zero equity to back it up with, this is just spew- its no other way to sugarcoat it.
Yeah this. We aren't playing $25/$50/$100 $25k deep here. Bet your VALUE hands and REASONABLE bluffs. This hand is complete spew and tells me that you maybe get bored folding at the table and so get more involved than you should be to stanch that.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:48 AM   #21
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

I typically chop here unless old man ain't.

I'm fine with the raise, with the plan being to cbet and take it down a lot. Although our success rate of taking it down on the flop will be a lot higher if we simply wait to see if he checks a limped pot (but the question will be whether we make more $$$, which I'm guessing we likely don't).

I just fold to the donk. He has something, we have nothing, so in general it's just not worth getting FPS here.

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Old 05-23-2018, 11:55 AM   #22
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdave2304 View Post
I could be off but i think this is a flush a large percentage of the time. This is a population read of old asians imo

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Kind of thought the same thing. A lot of flush draws try to do small bets, control the pace, and few other fish will raise into it, while he controls the pace. Hits the flush and goes harder into it.

It is a bit strange that he might have a flush without A/J, but I guess a KsQs bet with 0 fear of an a flush when H could easily have his flush as well (since $15 per street if giving H decent implied odds to hit.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:40 PM   #23
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Re: 1/3 - Tricky old Asian man loves to donk

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
I feel like this is one of those hands that has us donking off half our stack into stubborn QJo.
+1

I just don't think there is any reason to make poker so complicated.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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