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Old 06-26-2018, 06:48 AM   #1
LordRiverRat
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1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

V1 (MP): 30 ish white guy, TAG ($350)
V2 (BTN): 50 ish white guy, very loose pre, plays draws aggressively post but hasn't done anything too crazy (covers both)
Hero (BB): late 20s Asian guy, nitty image ($600)

UTG straddles. V1 makes it $25. V2 calls on BTN. Hero calls in BB with JT. Straddle folds.

Flop: JT9 ($77)

Hero checks. V1 bets $35. V2 snap raises to $100. Hero ??

Not too worried about V1 since his sizing especially vs a guy who plays too loose pre is not the sizing he would use with a strong hand. I think 3 betting is over playing my hand. Too deep to get it in vs V2 cause he will have all 48 combos of straights since he's very loose pre. And even his draws have good equity against me. Flatting sucks too because I'm gonna be OOP possibly multiway, I'm clearly at least kind of strong and I'll hate half the deck. And my hand just looks too good to fold. This is definitely one of the toughest spots I've been in in a while.
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:53 AM   #2
mdelore
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Re: 1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

I suspect flatting this OOP is a losing play in a straddled pot. No shame in folding this hand OOP since flatting plays so badly post. Flatting sc's OOP is the nut low.

AP you're slightly ahead way behind and in for $25. Protecting your stack is probably more important imo. I would just fold but it is obviously disgusting.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:39 AM   #3
RagingOwl
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Re: 1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

JTs is just one of those hands that becomes monumentally stronger when it has the betting lead. I like a 3bet pre-flop here. Exploiting opponents who make loose calls pre-flop, and then fold huge% of their ranges post-flop is really the secret sauce in LLSNL. V2 sounds like just such a fish.
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:02 AM   #4
football0020
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Re: 1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

I also like 3-betting pre, especially considering your nitty image. Just make it like 115 and take down the 57 in dead money a huge % of the time.

AP, I think I would fold. Ask to hold on to your cards to show the fold after the hand, further reinforcing your nitty image to the table so you can use it to your advantage later.
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:27 AM   #5
iggystoned
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Re: 1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

I would call the turn and see from there. If both the OR and V2 are still in, bad news, unless turn is a complete brick, like 2 of spades.

See whats going on in the turn and reevaluate. But yeah, I wont get too involved, as discussed previously, it's either slightly ahead/way behind situation.

Hope this helps,
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:49 AM   #6
DormantShark
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Re: 1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking this should be a fold pre (it felt too nitty). JTs is great to play IP, or even as a 3! steal, but I don't like the flat. I think PF it is:

fold > 3! >>> call

AP OTF - I think you have to fold and hate yourself. I'm giving the raiser a range all sets, straights (discounted Q8), and big combo draws (AQhh, A9hh, A8hh, K9hh, Q9hh, KhJx, QhJx, AhJx). He can probably also have all 2P combos, which you either chop with or crush. Against that range you have 38.5%, which isn't awful or anything, but considering you're OOP, potentially facing two opponents instead of just one, and will likely have no idea where you stand OTT (without a J or T), I just give this up now.

tl;dr - you might already be crushed OTF and it ain't getting better on later streets. fold now.
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Old 06-26-2018, 01:17 PM   #7
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

I fold preflop. We're OOP with a marginal hand and it's for a pretty big percentage of raiser's stack and we're only going 3ways.

SPR is 4ish against the raiser and 7.5 against the deeper stack. I probably sigh feel committed against the raiser and not against the deeper guy. I probably donk a PSB+ to play for stacks against the raiser on this drawy board (noting that all overpairs ain't folding as almost all of them also have a straight draw).

As played (and I don't hate a check/evaluate plan either), I fold fairly happily. Guy hasn't done anything too crazy and raiser should like this flop and yet other guy seems to like it more. A bunch of stuff beats us already (KQ/JJ/TT/99/87), and even the bottom of his range (pair + draw, overs + draw, etc.) is likely doing ok. Plus it's still possible the raiser has smashed this flop too.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 06-26-2018, 02:15 PM   #8
mdelore
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Re: 1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I fold preflop. We're OOP with a marginal hand and it's for a pretty big percentage of raiser's stack and we're only going 3ways.

SPR is 4ish against the raiser and 7.5 against the deeper stack. I probably sigh feel committed against the raiser and not against the deeper guy. I probably donk a PSB+ to play for stacks against the raiser on this drawy board (noting that all overpairs ain't folding as almost all of them also have a straight draw).

As played (and I don't hate a check/evaluate plan either), I fold fairly happily. Guy hasn't done anything too crazy and raiser should like this flop and yet other guy seems to like it more. A bunch of stuff beats us already (KQ/JJ/TT/99/87), and even the bottom of his range (pair + draw, overs + draw, etc.) is likely doing ok. Plus it's still possible the raiser has smashed this flop too.

GcluelessNLnoobG
I like this flop line a lot more than checking. Sometimes I forget we can lead into the pfr
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Old 06-26-2018, 04:51 PM   #9
LordRiverRat
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Re: 1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
Flatting sc's OOP is the nut low.
It's a suited broadway. Big difference. Too good to turn into a bluff imo especially being deep vs the potentially crazy V2. I'd rather flat this and 3 bet an actual SC like 87s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by football0020 View Post
AP, I think I would fold. Ask to hold on to your cards to show the fold after the hand, further reinforcing your nitty image to the table so you can use it to your advantage later.
I feel like that would just paint a huge target on my back and make villains call me even more pre so that whenever any draw gets there they can bluff me off my "obvious overpair".

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I fold preflop. We're OOP with a marginal hand and it's for a pretty big percentage of raiser's stack and we're only going 3ways.

SPR is 4ish against the raiser and 7.5 against the deeper stack. I probably sigh feel committed against the raiser and not against the deeper guy. I probably donk a PSB+ to play for stacks against the raiser on this drawy board (noting that all overpairs ain't folding as almost all of them also have a straight draw).

As played (and I don't hate a check/evaluate plan either), I fold fairly happily. Guy hasn't done anything too crazy and raiser should like this flop and yet other guy seems to like it more. A bunch of stuff beats us already (KQ/JJ/TT/99/87), and even the bottom of his range (pair + draw, overs + draw, etc.) is likely doing ok. Plus it's still possible the raiser has smashed this flop too.

GcluelessNLnoobG
I don't totally disagree with folding pre since it's a straddled pot so a hand like JTs goes down in value especially OOP. However I'm still playing 50bb eff vs RFI and a full 100bb vs V2 so I felt like there was plenty of room to maneuver. Depending on board and how V2 reacts I can x/c and check shove a lot of turns vs V1 to put him in a tough spot especially with my image.

Yes I should donk some flops especially flops like this (which btw are NOT good at all for the raiser where'd you get that from? This smashes any reasonable flatting range) but I feel like I'm still too rigid in my strategy sometimes and need to deviate more because balance is more of a leak if anything at 1/3. So without donking, in order to take the betting lead it has to get checked through and the turn has to be favourable enough for me to bet. Being OOP without donking really sucks! Thank you for making me realize that I'll be sure to donk more.
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Old 06-26-2018, 04:56 PM   #10
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 top two facing raise on JT9ss OOP

A JT9 flop smashes a 99+/AT+/KQ typical tightish raising range. Almost every single hand is at worst a pair + a draw and a big part of the range is nuttish.

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