Hero (UTG) - $1.2k - should have a solid tight image. It's late Saturday nigh/morning so most of table are in that zombie autopilot mode. Hero showed a big bluff though so villain must know that I can make moves. I think in general though he views me as a typical young TAG type of player

V1 (UTG +1) - $1.5k - I've played with him like twice.. This session we've played 5-6 hours. In general he seems to play pretty tight, but is definitely a recreational player (MAWG). He does limp a bit from all positions, but in general I've only seen him show the goods when he's betting. Not too much info / tendencies though. In my experience with him, I would guess definitely less than like 18% vpip

V2 (UTG +2) - $400 - seems like your average rec player. Limps a lot (much more than like V1). However, I only have like 45 mins with this villain because my initial table broke and we moved to this table. Has not raised any bets during my time with him

V3 (BB) - $1k - whale. Super loose, random spazz factor


OTTH

Hero opens $15 with 8s8d
V1, V2, V3 call

Flop ($60) 8h7h5d
V3 x
Hero bets $40
V1 calls
V2 raises to $175
V3 folds
Hero?

Does what and why?
What is your plan on the different turns?

I'm really curious as to how people are thinking about their ranges here this deep as well as villains ranges

Keep in mind that I have a limited history with V1. He can flat with sets here (I don't really know how he plays sets here). I'm not sure how many flush combos he has. 69s UTG +1 flat vs UTG open sounds loose for him. He can have 99-JJ. 9Ts for sure, but again I don't know what frequency he is raising Ah5h or 9hTh on the flop

Well, we're only 130bb deep vs V2 & at this point, I think that's all that matters. 96s is certainly in his range, but so is 75 and lower sets. (maybe even 99-JJ) IMO his huge raise is scared of the draws. I think flatting or putting him AI have the same outcome, but I prefer to just put him AI. Seems like he likes his hand and will stack off here, so just rip it. Even if he has 96hh, we have 30% equity.

Maybe I should have specified..... I have no problems stacking off with V2 on like almost all run outs 130bb deep.

I'm way more interested as to how I should be playing against V1 here

I'm not sure I agree with you when you say "were only 130bb deep vs V2 and that's all that matters." Because I feel like my decision at this point is going to be quite significant if V1 decides to continue given we are so deep. I.e. If I flat or raise too smal where V1 continues and a 6, heart, J all bink on the turn, im lost, oop, etc

I'm just torn between like shoving vs like raising. Shoving seems just massive, and it seems like V1 will have a hand he will continue with a decent % of time - so we not want to keep some of those hands in?

I'm flatting to keep V1 in then leading safe turns.

Based on description of V1 I think his flop flat range rarely continues to a raise.

@QuantumSurfer - i think its a bit of an assumption because I just have limited hours vs him. I have no idea if he is raising flopped nuts a high % of the time.


@johnnyBuz - I guess that begs the question what do we do on non-safe turns? also if v1 backraises (assuming we were to try flatting) i'm assuming were ok just shipping it in over the top?

the hand also got me thinking about how i should be approaching this situation if we had:
a) 55 and/or 77
b) AA/KK (heart and no heart)

It sounds like your concern is primarily with how much the money means to you. Therefore it's pretty hard for an outsider to give advice that applies to you.

I think the flop is a call. I think you can check-call all turns. Most likely you'll end up on the river having put 1/3rd of the money into the pot and have a boat (or better), or put 1/3rd of the money in and have a set. Neither outcome is that scary.

im not sure i really understand where you got the first assumption from. this hand has nothing to do with me scared of losing money. this hand made me think about how quickly ranges can begin to narrow when you are this deep and how i should be responding to such.

when i get stacks in on the flop, is it ever not against the nuts (against V1)? do i choose to flat here to a) protect my overpairs and b) i never have 69 here anyway?

i dont get why i would x/c safe turns seems confusing to me as well because let's assume V1 flats after I flat V2's raise. turn is a black offsuit 2. If V1 flats behind me on the flop, he never should have 69 IMO, or it should be an insanely small part of his range. It seems like it would be criminal to let him see see a cheap river when he almost always has a hand like bottom 2, 99-JJ, or some NFD/combo draw.

in the same scenario, if i flat and he flats, and the turn and i check and he checks and V2 jams turn for $200, if i just flat V1 is just getting an insane price on his FDs and that seems awful to me.

lastly, how bad is it if V1 has 55 here and a heart peels on the turn and kills my action. makes flatting flop seem a hell of a lot less appealing imo.

Noone probably cares but I found it a little interesting to see that 6h5h is actually a favorite if hero has 88 and the other villain has 77. 46.7% for 88, 5.0% for 77, and 48.3% for 6h5h. I guess that does make sense as 6h5h would have 15 outs on the flop and then you would discount that about 3 outs for quad 8s, quad 7s, and a redraw to a full house. That would then leave 12 outs times the rule of 4 for an estimated 48% equity. Well, I guess I mean 6h5h is a favorite over each of 88 and 77 but a slight dog against the 2 hands combined.

Obviously calling flop

Why do you advocate for not raising.

i would say deception, doug polk would say to protect your calling range.

We don't want to give v1 a chance to hero fold 55/77, that would be a disaster. Also gives him the option to back raise these hands.

Raise to $500 to gii with shorter stacked V. Board is too scary to flat here OOP.

Flatting will invite the other deep stack with all his draws which is a disaster. He would have mostly raised 55/77 OTF. I don't care if he wants to hero-fold those hands if he did flat them though.

We want the deep stack in and his 9 out draws are still getting less than direct odds...

You wouldn't like hands with 4% equity to continue? He could come along with 78 too. I do realise that there are some very ugly turn cards, obviously any heart/jt94 are bad but playing scared and always reraising top of range for protection (without a bluffing range) is bad.

Let v1 flat and then pray for the kc ott and x/jam it after v2 puts in his last $200

Yeah but I'd rather raise to price out hearts.

Is this bait?

I'm also in the flatting camp.

I think V2 doesn't matter but turns out to be very useful. He doesn't matter because if V1 exits, we're putting V2 in on the turn. If he had a draw and it hits, well done him. Otherwise, we shove and he does whatever he does.

I think V2 is useful because he's very likely to shove the turn if the flop isn't raised.

V1 has position and could be way behind (77, 55, or even 75), ahead (65% with a straight), or in the middle (draw or combo draw). We really don't know where we stand. He might well have raised the hands he thinks are strong. He might well also have raised with his draws. He didn't raise, but he still has something. We can't really tell what, though we can perhaps shade a bit more towards a draw.

If we start to shovel money in, we let V1 play more correctly. He can continue with his nuttish hands and possibly big draws. He can call if he's getting the right odds. He can fold things like 75 or even 55 (what is that beating on all this action?).

When we're operating in the dark, OOP, against a range of hands that has us either ahead, behind, or somewhere in the middle, with a big stack, I think we should gather more information before putting big money in.

And by big, I mean big relative to the pot, not big in an absolute sense. Not worried about the money per se, but SPR is 20 OTF and other LLSNL V's do tend to be worried about the absolute size of the money. I'm thinking we're very often going to be behind if it all goes in now

I expect V2 will shove the turn. I'd flat again and see what V1 does. Pot is now protected, which helps purify matters. Since V1 won't have FE to win the pot, and his draw will likely win against both, I expect a raise from him will mean the goods. We'll have to decide whether he thinks "the goods" includes 77 or 55.

call the 175.

lead out for 275 on any non heart, 6, or 9 turn.

if you boat, check it. V1 has a heart draw and you need him to get there.

but you are trying to fade the obvious heart draw that V1 has while still protecting your hand.

I'd just raise to 350 to look like you're trying to iso the whale

edited out some of your post, but thanks for the detailed response. really what i was looking for because idk how people are just posting like 5 word posts because imo, these spots are really complex and interesting and mistakes in these types of pots can cost us a ton of money.

IMO i also said v2 doesnt matter because our stacks are going in almost at any point. when he raises this flop, whether he has a FD and turn is a brick, hes prob still calling a jam. if he has a strong made hand, his stack is going in. hes full on bluffing like .1% of the time.

regarding V1: hes never way ahead.. i dont really consider 65/35 "way ahead." i do suppose that if V2 has 55/77/75 which he can VERY well have, then our equity is hurt a lot.

im not sure if these recreational players are in the business of folding sets on the flop. cant they think that im just isoing V2 with a raise with an overpair? not saying i would, but im not sure that action really warrants rec/avg LLSNL players folding bottom set.

but the whole helping villain play correctly is an interesting perspective to me. and i completely agree with - if i shovel money in on the flop, am i way behind more often than not?

the biggest problem i have with flatting is this - if i flat, there are about 25 cards i dont want to see (any heart, J, 6, 9, 4). if we want to be optimistic then 17 (hearts/J/6). either these cards put my hand far behind, or they will kill action if i coolered V1 with set over set or something along those lines. I'm OOP and I will be lost. Do I fold to a heart turn and facing a jam? and how disastrous is it if i flopped set over set with V1, and were 400bb deep, and all i am able to get in with him is $180?

Case2 in your opinion then, if I flat V2 and V1 makes a big raise and/or back raises all in on me, do you call or fold?

the whale has already check/folded. if anything i want to look like im isoing the "short stack" (who is actually 130bb deep)

i understand protecting my calling range here, but im not sure that is as necessary in LLSNL. IMO there are specific scenarios in LLSNL where protecting your ranges are important, but not sure they are here. like no one is gonna exploit my flatting range here because both can be strong. no one is gonna randomly blast and try to bluff me off in a 3-way pot 400bb deep when V2 is uncapped.

i guess it is more likely he would back raise bottom/middle set if he didnt raise first go around as my hand would look much more like AK/AQ/AJhh or overpairs. but if he does have those hands, are we really afraid hes gonna hero fold? seems more disastrous if we both flat the $180 V2 raise, and like a heart peels on the turn and i get $0 more from him. basically flopping set over set 400bb deep and winning 60bb. that sounds awful.

if V1 indeed has a really weak hand, like 99, A8 then hes just folding anyway given description that hes a bit tight. if he has like a naked FD, i believe he might call a raise just given the fact that these rec players love to try to bink and win a huge pot.

I'm never flatting here with V1 still to talk. Board is too drawy to flat OOP imo. I'd make $400/gii. Even if someone has another set, a scary turn card might kill the action, so I prefer to put my money in OTF.

One viewpoint I don't think anyone has addressed yet is what the maximum BI is and the cost of going broke with a whale still sitting in the game at $1K (which I'm assuming we'd like to cover). That might be something to consider (i.e. don't go broke against V1 which I'm assuming we mostly are if we get it in on the flop and otherwise be ok with losing some profit against him on bad runouts in order to protect our stack so we can battle the whale later).

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