1/3. Effective 300. 9 handed.

LJ is the main villain. He had been playing loose and running very well. He isn’t a LAG but he’s not super passive either.
Hero Utg+1 88hd raise to 12, LJ calls. HJ calls, BUT calls.
4 ways.
(52) Flop 843xdd
X x x x
(52) Turn Tx
Hero bets 35, LJ calls, fold, fold.
(122) Riv 6d
Hero bets 60, villain folds.

Not sure if it makes a ton of sense to check the flop as it’s multi way, but I had yet to c-bet as the pre-flop raiser and i was expecting my first c-bet to get respect.
Also I don’t think it’s too big of a crime to check a hand as strong as top set but with the flush draw/straight draw out there in not sure.
This might all just be in my head, but I get into this mindset a lot. If I’ve been playing for a couple hours and raising pre and check/folding many flops in a row I try and take the first semi-decent spot to c-bet semi bluff expecting to get a lot of respect. Likewise, I will check a very strong hand on a dry board under the same circumstances. Do u think this is just all in my head? Do u alter your strategy if you’ve been raising pre and c/folding a lot or do u just stick to the strategy despite previous runs? (Not sure this is even a c-bet regardless, but I’m still interested in the general question)
Thanks!




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Nice thread. I feel this forum needs more discussions on cbetting rather than the usual overpairs getting raised or whatever. These spots probably co tribute way more to winrate than most realize.

Generally when cbetting as a bluff I will do it on a drier board where Villains hands are likely to be more static. These low coordinated flops will get called too often.

Checking top set on a dry board is fine, but on a wet board 4 ways I think this is a bet. Get out there and build a pot. There are many ways this flop could have hit them that arent top pair. I would bet out 20-25. Yeah, you wont get any action from QJo on this flop, and you could let them catch a free Q to pay you, but this board is wet enough you will get some action and you do need to protect your equity from bad runouts.

You need to be betting the flop as there are straight draws and fd, with 3 opponents you don't want to give a free card. Also you want to be betting most of your over pairs here as well and some of your stronger draws.

Given that LJ didn't bet flop I think that reduces FDs from his range a bit. As played I think a river C/C makes more money than leading.

I just think we're in too EP to be raising marginal hands like this. We end up OOP to 3 opponents and will hate most flops, plus it looks like we probably had very little FE preflop, plus we cost ourselves money if we're 3bet (as now we'll have to fold unlike had we just limped). I mostly just limp to setmine (while admitting that setmining is difficult OOP but our hand will sometimes be strong enough to win postflop without hitting, so I"m dumping 66- although admittedly that is my own rather arbitrary line-drawn-in-the-sand).

OMG, one of the only reasons for raising 88 in EP is to make it easy to play for stacks when we do hit, and now we check the flop? SPR is 6 and board is fairly drawy. I think I attempt to play for stacks on the turn, so I'd overbet the flop to like $70 to setup a turn slight overshove.

My thinking wouldn't change on the turn as played; the only way we can play for stacks now is by overbet/overbet.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I disagree with limping here, gg. It's too nitty to fold a good set-mining hand (middle PPs 5s through 9s are the best ones to stack A/K-high flops when Vs think they have the nuts with AK)

We're 300 effective and we need to start building a pot in order to get paid off. A decent player should be able to estimate his realistic chances of being 3-bet. At most low stakes passive tables, it'll be way less frequent than the hand limping around. We also have just enough stack depth to call a small sized 3! (up to $30-35)

I'm nearly always leading this flop multi-way though. You have to weigh your chances of everyone folding vs letting draws improve to a flush.

I don't hate the flop check though, I think the following combos have merit here:
check flop/bet turn/bet river
bet flop/bet turn/check river

I like the way you played this hand. Sometimes our sets just won't get paid.

While I agree that there are probably lots of different ways this inbetween hand can be played preflop, the biggest reason for raising it preflop is so that we can easily play for stacks postflop if we hit; which makes our postflop play really inconsistent with this (i.e. ug at checking the flop).

GcluelessNLnoobG

B/b/b, stack opponents, win moneyz, ez game

Also, please don't overbet the flop. We want flush draws to call.

Do you think flush draws fold to big bet?

GIdon'tG

I mean...you can bet the flop like you have AK,TT, etc. for $30

For 70 into 50? Yeah, a lot of them will. Maybe some don't but there's no reason to narrow their continuing range to like A2dd, A5dd, 56dd, when we can just bet 40-45 and get basically all flush draws to continue at an incorrect price.

Pre raise is fine.

I like a 50-60% PSB on the flop (25-30), to start building a pot, getting FDs, gutterballs, small pairs, ace-highs to call.

River bet is fine.

If you’re not cbetting when you’re the PFR, what are you doing OP? Getting it heads up or vs two opponents and cbetting flop to take it down is the bread and butter of live low stakes. Sometimes you flop top set and sometimes you whiffed but keeping the pressure on is key.

I don’t like not cbetting the flop when we hit top set on a somewhat wet board, more to the point it’s mostly all low cards so when a higher card comes and we bet, like what happened on the turn, we still look strong. And unless someone happened to hit the T then the more likely outcome would’ve been them calling a flop bet with their pair or draw.

I’d much rather take a bet/bet/bet line until I am given a reason not to, like in this hand I think flop and turn betting is good but once the river brings the flush the window of villains calling range becomes much smaller. We could’ve gone the same sizing we did on turn and river to flop and turn and check back river or make a smaller value bet.

I don’t hate the line after the flop check but I strongly believe you missed out on value from not betting flop to lead into betting turn bigger.

Thanks for the responses so far!
I just want to say I’m mostly interested in the psychological aspect of what had happened. I do tend to cbet at a relatively high frequency, maybe 50-60% in a 3 way pot, and adjusting to exploit opponents. I normally bet my good hands. It’s just happened that for the last 4 or 5 hands I didn’t have any of those hands, so I just check/folded. Now it’s looks like I’m playing tight on the flop. (I only bet if I have the goods)
Is this something that u think is an important factor in how we play the hand?
Without this dynamic I would prefer a bet on the flop. With this dynamic I’m not sure


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Not betting top set here is terrible. You are 4 ways, drawy board and have the nuts, pile money in. You bet all your overpairs and flush draws like AJdd+/KQdd anyway. If the board was 882r, I can get behind a check.

It's OK to have a very strong cbetting range OOP multiway, in fact I never cbet in this situation without at least a decent draw or top pair. Contrary to the behaviour of some of your opponents, it's bad to mindlessly cbet 80%+ of the time.

Average LLSNL villains will not have taken note of this and will merely be playing the strength of their own hand. You're missing a lot of value by not putting out a bet here on a drawy board.

You don't need to worry about c/f a few hands in a row. You want to have some stronger hands in your check range otf, on this board I think AA with Ad and maybe KK with Kd should be in that check range, I like bet with everything else. If it was a rainbow board I think a check with your hand is the correct play.

A common trait among llsnl fish is that they feel the need to cbet too often in multi way pots. If I raise up a hand and it goes 4 ways I'm hitting a good pair or a good draw, or typically I'm going c/f.