1/3, 9-handed, $700 effective. Villain is a 50s talkative Asian man. He's mostly a loose-passive fish that limp-calls junk hands like 97o, but he can do some weird button-clicking at times and play in unpredictable ways.

Hero is dealt A3o
Villain limps $3 UTG
MP limps $3
Hero completes SB
Maniac whale (BB) raises $12 BB (he could have ATC here)
We all call $12

Flop ($44, 4ways) is A32r

Hero checks
Maniac whale checks
Villain bets $22
MP folds
Hero raises to $85
Maniac whale folds
Villain thinks for 15 seconds, acts like he's frustrated with my raise and has a tough decision to make, but then reraises to $212
Hero calls $212

Turn ($457, HU) is A32Tr
(We have $476 behind)

Hero checks
Villain bets $200
Hero ???

I know that folding pre may have been best, but I did kind of want to get into a pot with the maniac whale who was known to station people off with bottom pair, even facing multiple barrels in a multiway pot.

What do you think about this spot?

Strap yourself in and get it in.

the only reason not to cram the flop over his 212 is because we think he'll keep betting turn.

if he has a set, he has a set, or if he's out drawn you on the turn, then so be it. But I'm never folding a flopped top two against a maniac whale

I don't know if V would reraise with 23 or A2.

If he is mostly passive but is now re-raising you on this flop alarm bells would be going off in my head.

Would he limp with 45 UTG? Would he limp AK ever? Seems like 22 would be a standard limp for this opponent.

A2 seems like the only value hand you are beating from this particular Villain in this spot. I could actually see myself folding this type of hand but I would never tell anyone what I folded.

I think in the game I stack off every time, but when it’s posted and discussed, I can find a fold.

The tried and true tell of struggling and then raising is almost always the nuts.

V isn't the maniac whale. Hopefully u have a seat change button, get to his left.

AP, I'd fold. He is probably raising big aces pre, no? There are 4 combos of 54s, 3 of 22, and 1 of 33. 2 combos of A2s and 2 more of A4s, which might take this line.

Definitely getting a good price to call, but I'd overweight the nuttier part of a loose-passive range. Additionally, your flop CR was huge, and he topped that.

Yeah, I would say this is a fold on the flop when he gives the old

"Ugh, I guess I have no choice but to 3b, even though I could easily just take a turn in position."

One lesson that I've been learning painfully over my years playing poker is that whenever there is three to a straight, you have to be EXTREMELY careful playing against high vpip donks. These guys love to play offsuit connectors to a raise. So even though you beat A2 and 23, there are altogether only fifteen combos of those hands, compared with sixteen combos of 45. So even if this dude is just gonna overvalue any two pair (which I don't think he is btw, this line is 45 or a set like 90% imo), you're still in bad shape.

I get that you want to play pots with the bad playets but you have no initiative or position. I think this is the kind of hand you want to raise or fold pre flop. Imo theres no point in playing this hand if your gonna fold top two on a rainbow flop.worst case scenario you have 24% against straights and you block most sets. what were you hoping for quad aces.i would just shove flop with a tear rolling down my cheek.
The sizing on the turn seems like he didnt really think about it too much, i can imagine him just sliding two big stacks of reds into the middle all nonchalantly,lol so i doubt the ten helped him. My guess is your beat but this hand is too strong too fold

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Thanks for the advice everyone. I do agree that pre should've been a fold both times around (fold before completing SB, fold again before calling $12 raise).

This hand was basically punishment for my lack of discipline preflop.

Results:

Folding pre would be a mistake. The second call is close, but the initial limp is definitely +EV.

I disagree 100%. Keep track of every rag ace you play from the SB for the next 1000 hours and get back to us.

In the old days with online poker and poker tracker this was easy. Not so much anymore.

Grunch

I fold pre both times, junk hand worst position.

Flop
Unless maniac villain is really likely to bet and barrel, I'd just donk 30.
Ap prob nit folding to the 3! due to hollywood and the liklihood of 22, 33 and 45.
Turn
Fold

I fold the first time preflop. A3o is complete junk, and even though you might be able to argue to seeing a flop with it just to nutmine this deep, being OOP and the fact we have a maniac in the BB who'll often raise makes this an even more trivial fold, imo. Same thinking goes to calling the raise, imo (where I again fold although this time it's a little closer thanks to we're closing the action and getting a decent price to ~nutmine, but our hand is just so worthless it's not worth it).

The other problem with this hand is that we almost never feel comfortable with it when we flop "well". Is this a good flop? Or a bad flop? If anyone with half a brain wants to get in lottsa chips, it's probably a really bad one. This hand is *so* worthless, imo. Anyhoo, I probably just donk and go for value against Ax and will re-evaluate if raised; I'm not expecting the maniac to drive a lotta action in a 4way pot.

I think check/raising is way overplaying our hand. We're also fairly cool with inviting the maniac along (who's likely drawing very slim at best).

So guy does classic "oh gee whiz I'm not sure what to do here, I got raised, oh that sucks so much, ok, well, I guess I fricken 3bet the fricken flop $700 deep" and we think we're ahead? I fold.

I fold again on the turn.

Kinda hate every action we took, tbh. However, in fairness, from what I've seen of some lolAustralia HHs (yours and Meale's), I will say the game looks to play a lot different than mine (in that people seem to get in huge stacks with really lol holdings), so know your game, I guess.

GcluelesslolAustralianoobG

+1

(1) I don't have my databases any more, but pre Black Friday, I was showing a profit completing offsuit Aces in the SB.

(2) Even without data, it should be intuitive how this hand is profitable with the price laid. You flop top pair a bunch. Before anyone goes all herpa derpa reverse implied odds, in passive games, you can just check/fold the flop when you hit naked top pair. If it checks through, bet turn. Then check river or if opponent sucks, value bet. You also have implied odds on two pair, trip 3's, and wheels. If you don't suck, it's pretty easy to make it profitable, especially against the type of terrible open limping opponents in these games.

Ignoring the fat implied odds situations, if you can win about 5bb on average when an Ace flops (the current pot is 4bb), you have already passed the BE point of limping.

What about the times we set money on fire like Hero did at every possible opportunity?

Gifyou'reawizard,bemyguest;Heroisnowizard,imoG

Right, but that's because Hero played bad. I can only tell people the correct line on each street. Like if someone stacks off Aces for 400bb in a single raised pot against a postflop nit, should we advise them to fold Aces pre? That's basically what you're saying here. Hero will play bad post, so he needs to fold pre.

In general, RIO is a terrible point of view for looking at the game. If you are thinking about hands in an intelligent fashion and responding in correct ways to your opponent's range, then you don't have RIO.

Yup seems standard. Good fold.

Also completing pre the first time is fine IMO. Once someone raises pre behind, then you deffo need to dump it.

That's the whole point of RIO. RIO is what happens when you play weak hands, "hit, a flop, and still end up crushed. The lesson is to of course not play those hands (or know when to recognize RIO flops). That doesn't mean RIO isn't a thing, it means it is the predictable outcome of poor hand selection.

It's 1/3, so the SB discount is basically wiped out by our positional disadvantage. I wouldn't call anything on the SB that I wouldn't from the BTN, ad I don't think A3o is a call OTB.

I'll second that sigh raises are ridiculously nutted. This is probably a puke fold.

Also, don't pay $10 to see his hand. I guess it's better than flushing it down the toilet because it stays on the table, but not much better.

That acting like a tough decision crap is the oldest trick in the book, hes not putting on a show so he can bluff you lol.. come on dude.. that with not just shoving on turn and betting 200$ begging for a call leads me to believe he has best case scenario for you 22. Yes he only has sets or better here fold.

In all seriousness once V reraises ur reraise on the flop what are you putting him on A32 board? I would argue even if V had AK here he would just call ur 85$ raise. Once he reraises u hes telling u that he wants to play for stacks. He limped into the pot. The only hands he has here that would play this way are A3,A2(thin) mostly 33, 22 or 45. He would have to be an absolute ****** to be doing this with a bluff.

peeling on flop is very very marginal/close but also be conscious of the fact that there are only 4 good turn cards for you

You mean once the maniac whale who could have ATC raises behind?

The problem with limping is that this pot is going to get raised a lot.

Flop is a really easy fold to the 3-bet. This tell is extremely reliable.

Fold pre

I think that folding flop is extremely difficult, given how deep we are, given that it's only $127 more to call, given that we have 4 outs to the nuts and we are ahead of A2.

Turn is much easier to fold imo.

^
Flop is definitely frustrating, but a fold imho after Hero 4x raises then gets r-r by a loose-passive. It's a $127 more to call, which assuming 4 outs, equates to 8.5%, requiring ~11-1 return on $127.