Hi everyone,

1/3 game looking for advice here

Main V pretty splashy in general in the hour or 2 I have played with him probably playing about 50% of his hands but I think he somewhat respects me.

H: pretty TAG style. Easily the tightest at the table

OTTH: V straddles to 6 on the button. I think effective stacks are about 500 or so. Blinds limp I raise to 35 with AcKd UTG, UTG+1 calls, Cutoff calls 35 V calls 35 blinds call (lol)

(210) Flop 3d 6h 9c

Checks thru (never betting here)

Turn As we all check thru again ( what do you guys think of checking the turn here with so many people in the hand)

River 6c

Checks to me I bet 50UTG+1 calls cutoff folds V makes it 175 OTB ?

I think for me the hardest part was deciding to bet the turn in this spot

I would have bet about half pot OTT.

Bet the turn. Time to get people to give up their equity here. As played if I've never seen him raise the river, I can let it go. If he's done it before, I'm calling.

I don't like checking through on the flop. First and foremost, you want to deny equity to hands like QJ. Second, it would be nice to thin the field and last, you may be able to pick up some information. I think a roughly 1/3 PSB would be about right, or about $70.

I mean, you have a TAG image, so overpairs are defiantly in your range as well as AK, etc. Use it.

What happens on the flop changes the turn dramatically.

I like betting this flop with your image, but I understand the check vs. so many players.

I bet turn. If I check turn, I check/decide river. I see no reason to be when only better is calling/raising.

As played, I fold.

I can see why you might be reluctant to bet the flop, but isn't the turn card like the Joker for you? (It's an Ace AND gives no one a flush draw.) You will be ahead of the whole table a substantial percentage of the time. Also, why let some bozo make trip sixes or something like that on the river?

I typically go for limp/reraises at tables like these. Someone will often raise and get a bunch of callers (like has happened here), and then we can simply go after hugenormous dead money or otherwise setup trivial/comfortable stack off SPRs if called, so easy peasy. Going to flops very multiway OOP to low SPR pots (where anyone can trivially commit us for stacks) while also offering everyone decent IO (everyone here got IO of 18+:1 so no one is making much of a mistake against us) can create very difficult session defining spots.

I'm also never betting this flop.

I actually don't mind our turn check. Our hand is extremely face up if we bet, so I'm cool with a little deception / inducing worse / getting one more street. The biggest drawback is giving a free card to the world in a big pot, but with so many to act behind us that might not be an issue (as a lot of times any piece will bet when checked to, although a lot of these hands will fold if we bet ourselves).

I'm fine with our river bet although I might make it a bit larger just in case someone else has weakly played an Ace (as they will never fold to a single last bet here). I think I fold to the raise. Our hand does admittedly look weak here, and the EP players did check (most would bet their good hands against a field that is checking thru other streets), but in general most people don't make moves in this spot. ETA: Also just noticed that the +1 called our bet, so this makes the Button's raise even stronger (bluffs against multiple people are just so rare).

ETA: I think betting the flop this multiway is torching money. Turn is either/or with pros and cons both ways, imo. If others behind us are bluffy, I don't hate a river check given our turn check; the more ABC they are, the more I think we have to bet.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Pots 200, you gotta just gii unless you’re deep somehow. I mean they made it so easy.

I think cbetting otf being utg with 5 ranges behind would be a mistake and is burning money.
People in loose LLSNL usually dont give a shyte about your image and how tight you are or were. They only see their own hand.

Im mostly betting ott after check through otf to get 2 streets from sticky worse Ax hands. You also get at least 1 street from other hands when betting ott.
You are getting a good price to call but the river raise seems so valueheavy. Very player dependant

While that certainly used to be true, at least in my player pool, it no longer is. At least half the field is paying more than a little attention to the meta-game.

I agree that they notice you being tight but they still dont care too much. They still call their trash hands pre and chase postflop. You wont get them to fold their TP, SD, 88, 77 by betting once otf. So you have to bet at least twice or triple barrel. And planning to triple barrel AKo oop into multiple ranges isnt a good strategy and not how you make money in loose games.

I honestly don't think you'll sit with anyone nowadays that doesn't know what is going on (doesn't make them winners, but doesn't make them clueless doorknobs that they're often made out to be here). When we check this flop and bet this turn this multiway, everyone is putting us on AK, which ain't a good thing if that is what we have. Which is why I actually don't mind the turn check (especially on this board which is relatively free of draws). If we're somehow playing in the mid 2000s then betting the turn is much better, imo.

GcluelessopponentsnoobG

Is it that bad to play face up?

Played a similar hand last week. I open Ak utg+1 to 20 at 2-5. Go 5 to the flop. Middling rainbow flop checks through K turn i bet 45 into 100, and take it down. Im happy...

Next hand i open AK again.

Bet on A high flop. Called in two spots.

I lead out on turn. And take it down to comments of AK again. I smile and drag pot again. EZ maybe i miss value, maybe i dont let them catch by checking when im ahead...

I was new to the table, older than all of them though.... taking a couple of small pots with top top oop was great way to start off.

Well, that is certainly partially true, though I clearly disagree with the extent that it is true. Perhaps it's just variation in the player pool, accounted for by the time of day, city and cardroom. However, one thing that has always been true is that, sooner or later, word gets around where the games are particularly soft and more skilled players start showing up. This means that you shouldn't play a one-dimensional game.

In short, if you want to be a consistent winner, you need to adjust to the current situation and not do the same thing all the time. So, yea, I've raised, or 3-bet AK preflop and both bet it and checked it on a wiffed flop. However, the better default is to bet it.

@ Lurshy

As I said, there are pros and cons to both betting and checking the turn in this case. Playing face up and betting we likely get some people to fold that would have perhaps bet themselves if checked to / pay off one river bet. But we do protect our equity in a non-trivial pot (although it is possible someone else does that for us anyways). I'd have zero problem doing either ~half the time (maybe leaning one way or another depending on the cluelessness of our opponents, our image, the drawyness of the board, etc.).

GcluelessNLnoobG

IOf course you have to adjust and every player pool and every casino is different. Table dynamics are also quite different. Only OP sitting at the table knows or can guess how they play. But with the limited info it seems like a loose splashy table and the winning strategy on such a table is to play stronger ranges, make a hand and get paid. And betting oop into 4 ranges after missing only because of an image nobody at the table cares about isnt a good atrategy overall.

I don't mean this is in a dick ish way gg but if you played a style that was built to combat the current climate (and not one built in the years you're reffering too) you would view the majority of players as droolers

I still don’t get how this isn’t a slam dunk turn bet. Again no idea how deep, but the pots is 200 and flopped sets and turned 2p are now out of the blinds’ ranges. Bet the card that wins you the pot - and never ever ever bet flop ever. Really bet pot if possible.

How bad do these players have to be if someone calls a PSB on the turn with worse on a fairly drawless board? Our hand reads face up as AK the way we've played it, and considering our turn bet is into *FIVE* opponents we'd have to have a maniacal image for anyone to think we're bluffing here. Again, I'd have no problem with a bet, but a huge PSB of $200 (i.e. a full BI for a lot of players at 1/3 NL, including myself) seems to limit us only getting called by better unless we're up against some real special opponents.

If betting, I'd probably go $75ish (and no more than $100) to try and eke out some crying calls from 3 - 5 outers.

GimoG

Ancient concepts like 'face up' don't apply and especially don't apply in a $210 protected pot. Yes, the A is great for our AQ+/AA/A9s which is the entirety of our range.

As for sizing, depths are unclear, but just assuming normal stacks, I have zero interest in creating any situation that leaves fractional stacks behind for the river.

It's not even remotely close.

So we agree the hand is face up, the pot protected (due to the extreme multiwayness of it which basically prevents anyone from bluffing), and the turn smacks our range... and yet somehow a PSB is somehow still getting paid off by worse?

Fine. If someone is paying off with worse to a PSB here, then obviously do that. If not, don't do that. Fair enough?

ETA: I could get more behind a large bet if the board was drawier (more to protect against / more worse that will be willing to call a bet) and we felt we were committed for stacks (which is admittedly unclear here).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I'm (almost) always betting the turn here. Even if our hand looks like exactly what it is, what do we think anyone is going to do about it?

Is someone going to bluff raise us? Value town us with Ace rag that made 2 pair?

Possible, but unlikely.
Then I'm check calling most rivers unless it really looks like we are beat.

Put yourself as one of the overcallers on the Button with A7dd. The tightest player at the table raises UTG after the blinds limp and sees a couple of callers. You overcall cuz you're getting a decent price with a nutmaking hand and 3betting the tightest guy at the table opening UTG is obviously suicide. Flop checks thru. Now the turn with two scenarios:

a) UTG bets (no more than 1/2 PSB). Easy fold for us, no?

b) UTG checks as does everyone else. Are we checking thru? I'm not. I'm probably putting out a small 1/3 - 1/2 PSB, and as it turns out I'm doing that on a 3 outer thanks to UTG's perfectly fine check.

This has nothing to do with "scared poker" of people bluff raising us or value towning ourselves against better or whatever. It's simply a perfectly fine line with regards to extracting value from worse. Like almost all moves, it also has downsides (this one being if everyone takes their free card and someone moves ahead in a decent pot, which it looks like happened here). Pros/cons either way.

GimoG

Everything here is horrible I just cant.

What am I missing?

ETA: BTW, I'm completely on board with the idea of betting not leaving fractional stacks behind (a useless thing to do, agreed). But assuming we're much deeper than that...

GseriouslyG