1/3, Wed night, 9 players, loose fishy table.

Hero has Th Td under the gun and open raises to $21.
VillainX (30yo WM competent TAG, $200) calls on the button.
VillainY (35yo WM loose, spewy 65/30 reg, $250) calls in the SB
VillainZ (70yo WM recreational LP) calls in the BB

Flop ($84): Js Ts 9c

VillainY and VillainZ check. What do you do?

Erm.... You bet around 70ish.....
I mean if you don't know you should be betting here then I think it might be time to buy a book or something?

Of course I was going to bet, it's about the sizing. Bet sizing has been the ruin of many a wizard lately.

Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea!

There are alot of draws out there so you want to go pretty big Imo, I think around 70 is about right...
You may get jammed on here a decent % of the time and I think we have to be willing to stack it off here if that happens...
If we get called evaluate turn, jamming on any bricks and probably jamming any spade that isn't a k,q,8, think we have to give up to any k,q,8 on the turn

Bet 60-70

70 seems like too much, I want people to call here, we're not that deep so we're not going to have to face down monster turn and river bets, we're just going to be allin on the turn almost always. I want to encourage people in with hands like K9, which will look like a good hand to a fish but is nothing but a gutshot against our hand. People are also quite likely to be duplicating each other's outs, like if KJ is in then K9 is essentially drawing dead, same thing with QJ and Q9, etc. I'd bet 50 to 55ish which is plenty to set up a turn shove.

the table is described as loose and spewy. we need to make a significant flop bet with the top of our range on the wettest possible flop.

it's better to get more money out of the many many hands that will continue for $70 than to get calls from a few extra hands we have dominated (K9, KT, etc.).

I get what you're saying about K9, but there are so many other hands that are going to continue at a large size (QJ, QT, Q9, AXss, KXss, QXss, some AJ/KJ, 99, other spade hands) that there isn't much value in keeping our opponents' ranges wide.

in the case that everyone just has 2 blank cards, I am happy to take down the pot here because there are a lot of scare cards my opponents can represent better than me.

At very loose tables, I probably just limp TT in EP. We're simply always going to go very multiway to the flop no matter what we do, and most flops are going to suck. Even narrowing the field to "just" 4ways we're still just setmining quite a lot / see a lot of sucky flops. Heck, here we even flopped a set and we're not totally comfortable.

The SPR is < 3, so even though it's possible we could be behind, we're still 100% committed. This is one of those super wet flops where I'd actually really like to get all the money in on the flop, so if there were more players to act behind me I would actually go for a check/shove. But with only one to act behind, I don't think we can risk that. I'd probably just PSB the flop to setup a turn shove. I also think open jamming isn't horrible either (board is very drawy, I think we could still possibly get action from worse hands).

GcluelessNLnoobG

+1

Also, there is absolutely no difference between hands that will call $70 and hands that will call $85 (seriously, we think we're losing particular hands within that $15?), which is why I would go $85. And also partly why I don't think a shove is horrible with these fairly small stacks behind (although we definitely start losing hands at the shove level that we want to call, but if opponents are super bad / gambooley / time-to-go-home, maybe not).

GcluelessNLnoobG

^ advocating limping tt Imo is really terra-bad and is just screams pre-flop mubsyness... Is that a word?
Even if we are getting a bunch of callers....if your not raising tt pre-flop your raising range is going to be so narrow, and your missing out on massive immediate value..

ps be careful with OP ... he knows a lot of lawyers

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54...eeded-1662812/

Do you feel the same way about 88? Cuz there's not like this *massive* difference between them. At loose tables that go very multiway to the flop, most of the time we're just setmining with TT anyways. And the immediate value we miss preflop is kinda moot unless the hand ends on the flop (which it often won't) and then we often end up in gross situations on stupid boards OOP for the real money postflop.

FWIW, my default is to raise TT in EP. I just don't think it's a crime to open limp them. This is also the second recent TT in EP/blinds hand thread where we've flopped a set (our best possible result) and we still end up not being overly thrilled with it / OP is unclear exactly how to play it (which speaks volumes about how difficult it is going to be to play it in most cases).

GimoG

Pre flop: why so large? 4 or 5x should be normal. TT is a raise for me but if I need to open raise to $21 Pre to get folds I would likely limp call. Otherwise we are now cbetting $50+ if it goes multi way and making a large pot oop.

Flop: lead $70

Pre-flop: open raise to $20+ is the minimum needed to thin the field. I know it is yukky. Routinely there will be an open raise and a $100+ pot on the flop multiway. I once reraised to $70 with queens and got three callers!!!!!

I bet $75 on the flop and got no callers, thereby winning the small pot.

Bet flop

Yeah I would be raising 88 as well, interestingly 77 is my cut off here were I want to start thinking about it a little more, although I'm mostly raising 77 and 66, and then over limping 55-22... I never open limp, but what ever...
I'm starting to dabble with 3xing some hands from ep....small pairs sc's and it's been working quite nice as villans are much less likely to 3bet, but they might raise a Limp to 10x
I'm digressing though, just because two hands have came up with tt on here doesn't mean it's a particularly difficult hand to play.... We get probably 3 ak threads everyday, doesn't mean we should open limp that from ep....

I just think that with 88+ we should be raising for value, we are good enough to dump these hands if needs be, we are good enough to turn them Into bluffs if needs be, we are good enough to call down if needs be....
If we open limp, we can more often be bluffed, we are repping a narrower capped range and we are missing immediate absolute value....
Im willing to be persuaded, the limp.re-raise could be a decent option, but limp call from ep... I just kind of hate it with any hand especially one as strong as tt...

That thread is hysterical!

Both hands we flopped a set (A SET!), and in both cases OP had difficulty playing them. Things get easier when we don't flop a set / likely have an overcard or two on board?

Depending on stack sizes / looseness of table / aggroness of table / trickyness of table, my default at a lot of tables is to limp (to reraise) AK in EP. Not a horrendous play with TT either, although it does start becoming a little more borderline.

GcluelessNLnoobG

^ I think there is a distinct difference between a limp- re-raise which is play that I don't particularly like or use very often, but I can see the benefits of, and an open-limp call which is pretty much the easiest way to spot a fish in the first few hands at a new table...

Personally I never open limp...unless I'm trying to exploit a maniac.... I would rather open small, and think this has many benefits in Comparison to open limping....

If your open limping ak, and tt, is your raising range exclusively jj-aa?

Oh and let's be honest about this hand....op may have posted it here but this is not a difficult spot to analyse, it's a pretty clear bet, and op was looking for sizing info.....

My tables can often play very loose and sometimes quite aggro (did I mention the hand from last session where I 3bet the loose UTG open to $45 in UTG+1 with a rock image and we went SIX ways to the flop?). Anyhoo, in a lot of situations, I actually have no raising range whatsoever and openlimp/overlimp all my monsters to limp/reraise (with the exception being in LP where I'm forced to do my own raising).

GcluelessraisingnoobG

Good bet as played, I think you can check/call flop, jam turn if it's a safe card and you wanted to nit it up.

Gobbledygeek
You obviously have your reasons for the open limp and if your going 6ways to every flop who wants to be oop in a 40bb pot against some pretty wide ranges.... I get that, and as a known variance dodger I respect that alot, I still maintain though that your are losing absolute eV by not raising your top % of hands pre flop.
I don't want this thread to turn into another debate about weather open limping is a good play or not, I respect your posts alot so I will leave it as....
In poker as in life,
There is more than one way to knock down a wall...just next time maybe you shouldn't use your head

Yeah, we'll have to leave the limp/reraise debate for another day.

GIstillmaintainthatatalotoftablesanythingotherthan limp/reraisingisactuallyprettyhorribleG