Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? 1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question?

10-17-2018 , 04:59 AM
1/3, $300 effective
You're dealt Th Td on BTN
The "ten of spades is exposed" and becomes the first burn card. This means that you now have half the chance of flopping a set.

MP raises to $12
CO calls $12
Hero ???

Knowing that you probably won't flop a set anymore, what's your best play here? Fold, call or 3bet?
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 06:01 AM
$40. You still have a great hand.
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 06:29 AM
Bobby Hoff once said that if he had a pair of kings pf and knew he couldn't improve, he would rather fold them and take any two random cards out of the muck to play. OP, if you were just a random villain to the field, you could look at bluffing with them and be successful if you had a tight image at the table.

Unfortunately, you are one of the best known players at your casino that gets looked up a lot due to your notority. Just fold them, like Bobby would.
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 08:30 AM
With a card exposed TT is really in the twilight zone. It's likely your hand is best but the chance of improving goes way down and TT is hard to play post if it doesn't. It's a trivial fold with 88- where you are mostly set mining anyways. With QQ+ you can still raise for value because you will still win a lot without improving.

If you expect your raise has a good chance of getting you heads up or taking down the pot then go ahead and raise. If villains are going to get sticky then folding is fine.
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 08:57 AM
Mind you, Bobby said that when playing in games that ran really deep. I'm sure he'd gladly play KK with a K exposed for 100BBs. TT is much more iffy. I agree with QuadJ, it's a raise or fold situation, and I agree that Hero's likely image makes it lean fold.
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Mind you, Bobby said that when playing in games that ran really deep. I'm sure he'd gladly play KK with a K exposed for 100BBs. TT is much more iffy. I agree with QuadJ, it's a raise or fold situation, and I agree that Hero's likely image makes it lean fold.
I love TT. It's probably my favorite hand, honestly. I think I've won bigger pots with TT than any other hand. Concealed sets, unlikely broadways, overpairs getting value from 98s overplayed top pair hands. I don't think it's difficult to play postflop at all.

This just feels so much like a fold, though. Sure, you probably have the best hand, but it's super vulnerable and you aren't even the opener. I've made it a point to try to go out of my way to avoid mediocre spots and it's pushed my winrates a bit higher this year even though they were already very good, and this is definitely a mediocre spot.
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 09:48 AM
Where did I saw I didn't like TT? I just mean it's an iffy hand for a 3-bet with one of its outs gone. With my OMC image, I'd likely do it, but with OP's LAGtard image, not so much.
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Where did I saw I didn't like TT? I just mean it's an iffy hand for a 3-bet with one of its outs gone. With my OMC image, I'd likely do it, but with OP's LAGtard image, not so much.
Not sure why I even quoted you, must have misclicked, although I agreed with folding anyway.

I guess if there's a difference of opinion I share it's that OP's table image even matters much here, though. In any case, I don't think anyone would argue that this is a great spot for OP even if 3b makes sense sometimes (I'm not sure it ever does but that's just me).
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 11:31 AM
Would somewhat depend on what we think of MP, but with non-short stacks (we're not deep by any means but we're not short either) and not a boatload of dead money in the pot, I'd more aim to just flatting here and playing a pot in position. Course this is likely what I would lean to even without the exposed T (I'm not just ~setmining, I'm looking to play a little postflop poker in position in a multiway pot).

ETA: Surprised people think this is mostly a fold vs raise situation. Given that we're in position in what will be at least a 3way pot (where people will lean to playing their hands a little more face up postflop) I think seeing a flop here and playing postflop poker is fine. Admittedly I'm not sure where the cutoff would be (i.e. I'd be folding 55 here), but TT is quite a lot stronger than just a setmining hand.

GcluelessNLnoobG
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6bet me
Knowing that you probably won't flop a set anymore, what's your best play here? Fold, call or 3bet?
It's hard to answer these questions without stack sizes and player reads.

You don't have to flop a set to continue with pocket tens.
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 12:43 PM
First of all... even without the burned T, we'd still need to know something about opponents and stack sizes to know what we should do here. So there's no way to answer this in a vacuum. That said, here are the normal equities TT has HU against a few ranges:

Top 5%: 47% equity
Top 10%: 53% equity
Top 20%: 59% equity
Top 30%: 64% equity

Now here are the equities with a ten removed:

Top 5%: 42% equity
Top 10%: 49% equity
Top 20%: 55% equity
Top 30%: 60% equity

It's still one of the strongest several hands against all of these ranges. We don't lose a ton of equity, because most of TT's equity against these ranges is not coming from set value. If it was a clear 3b normally, it's probably still a 3b with the dead Ts.

The more multiway this goes, the more the dead Ts hurts. For instance, against 3 opponents w/ top 20% ranges, we have 31% equity normally and 25% with the T removed (so removing the T costs roughly 20 percent of our equity, as opposed to the 5-10 percent we lose when heads up). This shouldn't be a surprise, since we're much more likely to need a set to win MW.

I realize hot/cold equities aren't everything, but this suggests that generally the burned T should make us slightly less willing to 3b than usual, and substantially less willing to overcall than usual.
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 02:34 PM
I'd call, but not a great spot. Would not 3b, or fold
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote
10-17-2018 , 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S
First of all... even without the burned T, we'd still need to know something about opponents and stack sizes to know what we should do here. So there's no way to answer this in a vacuum. That said, here are the normal equities TT has HU against a few ranges:

Top 5%: 47% equity
Top 10%: 53% equity
Top 20%: 59% equity
Top 30%: 64% equity

Now here are the equities with a ten removed:

Top 5%: 42% equity
Top 10%: 49% equity
Top 20%: 55% equity
Top 30%: 60% equity

It's still one of the strongest several hands against all of these ranges. We don't lose a ton of equity, because most of TT's equity against these ranges is not coming from set value. If it was a clear 3b normally, it's probably still a 3b with the dead Ts.

The more multiway this goes, the more the dead Ts hurts. For instance, against 3 opponents w/ top 20% ranges, we have 31% equity normally and 25% with the T removed (so removing the T costs roughly 20 percent of our equity, as opposed to the 5-10 percent we lose when heads up). This shouldn't be a surprise, since we're much more likely to need a set to win MW.

I realize hot/cold equities aren't everything, but this suggests that generally the burned T should make us slightly less willing to 3b than usual, and substantially less willing to overcall than usual.
Very informative response. This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!
1/3 - "Ten of spades exposed" preflop question? Quote

      
m