Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-10-2018, 04:02 PM   #1
LordRiverRat
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,232
1/3 QQ facing backraise

Villain (EP): 30 ish middle eastern guy, seems like a TAG but opened $15 with J3s on BTN (covers)
Hero (HJ): late 20s Asian guy, aggressive image; 3 bet twice and taken it down preflop recently including once vs villain; also taken down two very multiway pots by betting in position when checked to ($450)

UTG opens $11. Villain flats in EP. Hero makes it $45 with QQ in the HJ. UTG says "again?" and folds. Villain says "$45?" then announces "$145". Hero ???

Normally I just fold cause this screams AA. But the J3s and my image makes me think he might be fed up with me and making a move. Or I could be leveling myself. Obviously can't shove. If I flat I have to get it in on any non A or K high flop cause the SPR would be 1.
LordRiverRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 04:12 PM   #2
BlueSpade84
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 92
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Tough spot. After showing so much pre flop aggression I would expect to get played back at light.

But QQ is not quite a fistpump jam. Still given table dynamics I never fold here. Which leaves jam or call. Is villain really taking this line with AK? Which is the only hand we are not WA/WB with. In my world AK is much more likely to just call.

I think I look at Villain and say ”145? Ha, All In!" Make it clear you are challenging his manhood and you will get looked up by 88-JJ more often than you lose to KK/AA.
BlueSpade84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 04:15 PM   #3
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,870
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Tough spot with all the things in play (especially our 3betting), but overall this deep I would lean to folding. First flatter of an EP raise (especially a small one) can easily have the monster we fear due to not wanting to scare off all his action with a cold 3bet from this spot (especially if he thinks there is someone behind like us that could attack). And raising to $15 when folded to on the Button with ~junk isn't nearly the same as call/4betting and putting reasonably large $450 stacks in play.

GcluelessNLnoobG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 01:16 AM   #4
Keaton
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 460
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordRiverRat View Post
Obviously can't shove.
Why? Villain's line doesn't make sense, and there is $200 in the pot when the action comes back to you.

Pretty happy to stuff here.
Keaton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 06:21 AM   #5
LordRiverRat
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,232
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keaton View Post
Why? Villain's line doesn't make sense, and there is $200 in the pot when the action comes back to you.

Pretty happy to stuff here.
Cause if he's bluffing I win less than half my stack. If he's not I'm probably getting stacked. If I flat I let him continue bluffing. This is of course assuming I'm even gonna continue.
LordRiverRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 08:53 AM   #6
Calldown88
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 468
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordRiverRat View Post
Cause if he's bluffing I win less than half my stack. If he's not I'm probably getting stacked. If I flat I let him continue bluffing. This is of course assuming I'm even gonna continue.
What?

If he folds you win 100% of the time. Let's say hypothetically he has a hand like AJs & folds. He has a ton of equity even though he's behind, you make more from folding him out than calling. If he has AA you're still winning 1/5.

AA and KK should never flat an utg raise in a cash game. Maybe you projected that you were going to 3 bet though? The call/reraise from any position is generally 88-JJ imo. He's not giving much action postflop with these hands unless he hits a set, or its a low board. Best play is to shove pre.
Calldown88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 09:20 AM   #7
snowman
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ON THE ROAD AGAIN
Posts: 775
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calldown88 View Post
What?

If he folds you win 100% of the time. Let's say hypothetically he has a hand like AJs & folds. He has a ton of equity even though he's behind, you make more from folding him out than calling. If he has AA you're still winning 1/5.

AA and KK should never flat an utg raise in a cash game. Maybe you projected that you were going to 3 bet though? The call/reraise from any position is generally 88-JJ imo. He's not giving much action postflop with these hands unless he hits a set, or its a low board. Best play is to shove pre.
this is typically what I see as well 88-JJ
AA may pop up here and there because some hoddie-sunglass wearing donkey saw it on TV
snowman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 11:08 AM   #8
AllTheCheese
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AllTheCheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Sad life; won't change
Posts: 11,547
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Easy jam. Your reasoning that you can't shove because he's polarized is flawed. For one, he's not polarized. This is often TT and AK ime.

Moreover, there is a good likelihood he spite calls his bluffs anyway. See, for example, the LRR hand where the limp-reraiser called the jam getting terrible odds with 59o. Once Villain reraises to 1/3 of his stack, I'd say the probability of him folding is incredibly low.

Finally, since Villain is getting 2:1 odds on a shove, it's not like it's some big tragedy EV loss if he folds, say, K9s, which has 32% equity against your hand.
AllTheCheese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 11:39 AM   #9
shorn7
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,169
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
Easy jam. Your reasoning that you can't shove because he's polarized is flawed. For one, he's not polarized. This is often TT and AK ime.

Moreover, there is a good likelihood he spite calls his bluffs anyway. See, for example, the LRR hand where the limp-reraiser called the jam getting terrible odds with 59o. Once Villain reraises to 1/3 of his stack, I'd say the probability of him folding is incredibly low.

Finally, since Villain is getting 2:1 odds on a shove, it's not like it's some big tragedy EV loss if he folds, say, K9s, which has 32% equity against your hand.
+1
shorn7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 12:06 PM   #10
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 27,870
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calldown88 View Post
AA and KK should never flat an utg raise in a cash game.
If there is ever a time AA/KK is flatted more preflop (i.e. in EP being the first to face an EP raise), I don't know when it would be. Whether it "should" be is irrelevant; the question is whether it "is".

GcluelessNLnoobG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 12:50 PM   #11
jc315
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 957
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

this is sooooo nutted.

the verbal "how much? $45?" and then raising is so strong imo.

and an EP flat and then backraise is always nutted in my experience. i honestly would fold. i would jam if shorter but i think stacking off 150bb deep here, even with QQ, will not end well for us. he might show up with AK some % but i really believe it is KK+
jc315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 01:01 PM   #12
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 22,720
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

There's a world of difference between a l/rr pf and a c/br pf. Hero's a young asian who's 3 bet twice already. 88-JJ is a good range to think it is as a standard. Jam it. The villain's going to think Hero could 4bet shove AJ and think he's good with his tens.
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 01:01 PM   #13
timmay28
veteran
 
timmay28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,571
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Say yes, again, then allin & tip the dealer simultaneously
timmay28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 04:56 PM   #14
bigdaddycope
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 166
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

anything that isn't a jam here is a mistake IMO.

We sometimes get called by 88-JJ, AK, AQ, AJ? which is a dream spot for us.


Sometimes he just folds. Cool we don't get outplayed on A87 when he has 44 and spazz jams the flop.

Yeah sometimes we are crushed but the mentality that we are ALWAYS behind here when he calls our jam here is just not good IMO. Pretty sure he shows up with middling pairs and AK, AQ type of hands here more than enough for a profitable jam.


Especially if you're putting ppl in a **** this aggro always raising kid lol live poker type of spot.
bigdaddycope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 04:05 AM   #15
daniel9861
veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,384
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

I would expect him to show up with AK a lot more often than AA or KK.

Call the 4bet and get it in on non A/K high flops.
daniel9861 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 04:39 AM   #16
dellerrrr
enthusiast
 
dellerrrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Midwest
Posts: 79
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

J3s is not awful to open if folded to on the button vs two weak players in the blinds so not sure how much that kills his image.
True TAG players raise AA,KK almost always here so we just have to go with it.
dellerrrr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 08:58 AM   #17
Minatorr
veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 3,016
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

I would just shove. Not thrilled about getting 150bb in with QQ but it’s what it is. I very rarely stack off QQ this deep but seems like a fine spot to
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 10:57 AM   #18
vanvliet
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 166
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Agree with previous replies that 88-JJ and AK seem likely so jam looks nice on first thoughts. I have sympathy with OP that he might only be winning half his stack vs JJ-88 but losing his whole stack vs AA/KK but I guess JJ-88 might call our jam, putting us on AK etc with our loose 3 betting image.

AA/KK seem unlikely, but possible as per GG post. Most games Ive experienced are quite passive after a raise ... But V might specifically be targeting YOU as a light 3 bettor here.

I sympathise a bit with the post that the verbal tell can mean strength (surely 88JJ would keep quiet, repping AA/KK) but this is very uncertain.

I tend towards a jam but am not fist pumping
vanvliet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:05 AM   #19
Petrucci
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,692
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Havent read any replies, just the opening post.

Want to say something about the liveread of villain commenting verbally of the amount you made it like "45?" then announces to backraise to 145 is very concerning. That liveread is some of the most accurate correlations with the nutz in my experience. It has pretty much never failed me.

I would say villains range here is pretty much only premiums, so i mean youre just praying that he have AK and not KK/AA if you go with your queens here.

Its classic levelling to think a typical 1/3 villain is sick of you 3 betting and then widening his backraise range with the 145 raise. 95 percent of villains at that level doesent adjust in that sort of way: they simply wait for a monster before fighting back, and then they print money when you and other villains level yourself and stackoff into a nutted range.
Petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:08 AM   #20
Petrucci
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,692
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc315 View Post
this is sooooo nutted.

the verbal "how much? $45?" and then raising is so strong imo.


and an EP flat and then backraise is always nutted in my experience. i honestly would fold. i would jam if shorter but i think stacking off 150bb deep here, even with QQ, will not end well for us. he might show up with AK some % but i really believe it is KK+
Yup, exactly. That read alone is making me fold here, ive never experienced this being anything else but the nutz.
Petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:13 AM   #21
Petrucci
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,692
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

With the early pos flat+ the liveread speech before making the backraise i am willing to wager a decent amount of money from my roll that 88-1010 is simply not in villains range here.
Petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 03:54 PM   #22
JMX
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,715
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Meh.
Just because villain can open with J3s on the button doesn't mean they're also capable of 4-betting with 88-JJ.
Although I've seen people play back at aggressive players at 1/2 and 1/3, it hardly ever happens.
3-betting at 1/2 and 1/3 is already pretty rare (typically QQ-AA, AK), and 4-betting typically narrows it down to AA or KK. I would lean towards a fold here.
JMX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 05:17 PM   #23
Nozsr
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: between sessions
Posts: 1,147
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

In my games our post-speech QQ is dead meat here, hanging and aging in a cold storage unit.
Nozsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 05:34 PM   #24
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,926
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

Rip her in imo
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 05:48 PM   #25
HawkesDave
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,167
Re: 1/3 QQ facing backraise

In a 1/3 game a raise to $11 is pretty light, I'd find it hard to believe many players are going to just flat AA or KK here unless someone at the table behind has been really aggressively squeezing. Is that the case here?

Sure, you may run into AA or KK here but I think his range is weighted much more heavily towards TT-JJ/AQs+/AK so I'd just let it rip here, too. I don't think call is terrible either, particularly since you have position. I don't think a lot of 1/3 V's can pot-sized shove TT-JJ into a K or A-high flop.
HawkesDave is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online