Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-21-2017, 08:48 PM   #26
Dream Crusher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Dream Crusher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Dallas
Posts: 15,246
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Ed Miller considers 48bbs short stacking?

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk
Dream Crusher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 09:29 PM   #27
ahsfl
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 276
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

I would have to go check the text but I think it was up to 40bb. That short you pretty much take away all io from your opponents due to oversized pf raises so you can cause opponents to make a large range of mistakes even just calling pf especially because the goal is to get it in on the flop to maximize fe. It's far from difficult to get 40 bb all in on the flop with proper pf raise sizing so I would think it would fall on the high side .
ahsfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 09:30 PM   #28
XXX555666
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Never open limping this. That is horrendous even with like 50 bigs
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 09:40 PM   #29
spider
adept
 
spider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Too close to the action
Posts: 1,012
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

It's been a while since I read the Ed Miller short stack stuff. 40bb does sound right, but there's no exact dividing line and (as always) how you play post-flop depends on size of pre-flop raise and number of callers etc.

Regardless of where you draw the line the main point is you play tighter and emphasize big pairs and AK/AQ and de-emphasize SCs and smaller pairs as the stack size decreases. (It's really just a simplified version of the SPR stuff for pairs & overpairs that he would write about with Mehta/Flynn in later books, but was somewhat novel at the time, at least to me)

It is fairly boring and like watching paint dry but it's the right way to play if you are short stacked. If you don't like that, then rebuy obviously.

Last edited by spider; 08-21-2017 at 09:46 PM.
spider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 03:18 AM   #30
Dream Crusher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Dream Crusher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Dallas
Posts: 15,246
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Yeah, that's pretty much the opposite of the way I play. While I feel like a value-oriented strategy is the bread and butter of low stakes, there is just so much dead money in the pot nearly every hand that it's a very suboptimal strategy to just wait around to make hands. Players are limping too wide, raising too wide, betting too wide and virtually nobody is actually rolled for the stakes they are playing...even those that are financially rolled are rarely mentally rolled. The crazy thing about live poker is that one can play a LAG style and still be one of the tightest players on a lot of tables.
Dream Crusher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 11:32 AM   #31
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,941
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard32 View Post
Never open limping this. That is horrendous even with like 50 bigs
Some people are treating QJs like AA in this thread, imo. It's an ok hand, nothing more, nothing less. I doubt it's even profitable in EP at most tables I play at now (which is why I now typically open fold it in EP).

GimoG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 11:50 AM   #32
Case2
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,303
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

It's also important that the stack be significantly shorter than at least some opponents. If everyone has a short stack, it's not quite the same, since you're no longer getting the intrinsic advantages of having V's play different ranges against each other than should play against you, nor of having V's continue to play a hand after you're all in.
Case2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 12:09 PM   #33
spider
adept
 
spider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Too close to the action
Posts: 1,012
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Case2 View Post
It's also important that the stack be significantly shorter than at least some opponents. If everyone has a short stack, it's not quite the same, since you're no longer getting the intrinsic advantages of having V's play different ranges against each other than should play against you, nor of having V's continue to play a hand after you're all in.
I'd disagree only in that I think the average 1/3 player tends to assume that short stack players are bad and too loose and make the mistake of calling short stacks too loosely. (That is, when you are short you'll often get bad calls from bad players who could be short, mid, or big stacks themselves. I don't believe Ed Miller talked about that aspect at all.)

But the bigger point is absolutely true and what I found fascinating in the old Ed Miller book -- you can basically be a monkey wrench in the gears of skilled big stacks who are correctly playing loosely against fish medium/big stacks. Doesn't even take skill, you are just playing the odds in a way that completely negates the poker ability of skilled big stacks.

Btw, it's been forever since I read it, but I think Miller's short stack strategy is arguably just a refinement of Sklansky's strategy for all-in or fold in NL tourneys for someone who knows nothing about poker.

Last edited by spider; 08-22-2017 at 12:19 PM.
spider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 12:12 PM   #34
spider
adept
 
spider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Too close to the action
Posts: 1,012
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Some people are treating QJs like AA in this thread, imo. It's an ok hand, nothing more, nothing less. I doubt it's even profitable in EP at most tables I play at now (which is why I now typically open fold it in EP).
Yeah, it's definitely marginal. Here we are opening from HJ at 48bb's and I think it breaks down pretty easily:

1) if you open and don't get 3bet, this is fine b/c you probably have enough fold equity when 2 or less people call, and probably have enough implied odds when 3+ people call. (Having CO/Button fold and zero to both blinds call is probably the ideal, with all 4 people calling not bad either.)

2) if you limp and don't get raised by any of the 4 people yet to act, this is also fine. (Just getting 4 calls here and no raise is obv not bad at all.)

3) anything else sucks pretty bad

In summary, I think limping is really terrible if CO or button is decent and going to raise a lot of hands behind you, but opening could be fine there as long as they aren't going to 3bet light here somewhat frequently. As long as the 4 people behind you are passive, then either limping or opening probably are mildly profitable I'd expect.

Last edited by spider; 08-22-2017 at 12:24 PM.
spider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 01:10 PM   #35
spider
adept
 
spider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Too close to the action
Posts: 1,012
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Quote:
Hero: I'm the effective stack with 143. I've been raising a ton pre just been missing flops. (ex: raising AK flop 3 5 6 against like 2 or 3 people)

V2: regish player. Played with him before. Seems a little tilted had to rebuy. He has position on me and is playing a ton in position. has roughly 400

Folds to hero who raises to QJ in the HJ to $12. V2 calls on the button. V1 calls in the BB.
Combined, the stuff in bold makes this a fold pre-flop: laggy image, short stack, positionally aware player on button.
spider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 04:29 PM   #36
Ctrick311
journeyman
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 398
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

I am opening with QJs here 99.99% of the time given OP's player descriptions. The only way I'm folding is if CO or V2 have super high 3b percentages. There are way too many limpy passive fish at a 1/3 table for Hero to be playing 3b pots of of position against the better players at the table.

I think the hand is fine but I personally like a raise on the flop to around 65, setting up a 1/2 sized pot turn jam.
Ctrick311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 04:48 PM   #37
cicakman
banned
 
cicakman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,231
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Anyone suggesting limping should be banned for spreading pathetic nit propaganda.
cicakman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 04:52 PM   #38
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,941
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
Anyone suggesting limping should be banned for spreading pathetic nit propaganda.
Does every decision have to be so black vs white? Winning vs non-winning? Do it vs quit-poker-cuz-you-can't-possibly-win-otherwise? No room for alternatives?

I've been re-reading NLT+P a little recently. There's lots of room for alternative views. It's not as if one way = $$$$ and every other way = -$$$$.

G'Merica:everythingisblackorwhiteG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 05:01 PM   #39
cicakman
banned
 
cicakman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,231
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

No, that's exactly what poker is. You aren't suggesting alternative lines in creative spots. You're just spreading the most passive attempt at low variance and risk aversion possible every spot.
cicakman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 05:06 PM   #40
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,941
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

At least I've made clear arguments for why I fear raising here ain't necessarily a great idea (low SPR that commits us with very mediocre TP, often folds out hands we dominate / limits to hands that dominate us, little FE preflop with loose Button who sounds like he's trying to outplay us in position, etc.).

What are you arguments, other than nit=bad?

Galso,nitcouldeasilybethemostoptimumlinetobeatlows takes/smallstacks/highrakegames,imoG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 06:24 PM   #41
Shai Hulud
old hand
 
Shai Hulud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 1,934
Re: 1/3 QJdd in the HJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Crusher View Post
The crazy thing about live poker is that one can play a LAG style and still be one of the tightest players on a lot of tables.
This is so true. My VPIP/PFR is like 27/25, yet I'm often somehow perceived as a nit. I've been called "the most conservative player at the table" lol. I just silently nod and keep barreling these guys while they think I've got the nuts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
At least I've made clear arguments for why I fear raising here ain't necessarily a great idea (low SPR that commits us with very mediocre TP, often folds out hands we dominate / limits to hands that dominate us, little FE preflop with loose Button who sounds like he's trying to outplay us in position, etc.).

What are you arguments, other than nit=bad?

Galso,nitcouldeasilybethemostoptimumlinetobeatlows takes/smallstacks/highrakegames,imoG
Nit could easily be the most optimum line?

Bad nit! BAD! Shoo!

Seriously though I do empathize with you in that people should not be shouting as much "quit poker if you do x" kind of things, but on the other hand I understand where they're coming from. Nitty thought is ridiculously pervasive in the LLSNL forums. There's a thread going right now where OP and many other posters want to dump suited connectors from every position. Not just stop raising them, dump them completely. You see that kind of thing over and over and it's tilting.

There's no way nitty play is optimal, and I shouldn't have to waste time arguing why every other thread, though I often do. 1/2 fish play way too many hands. They have to get rid of these hands somehow or become calling stations. Most of them get rid of these hands by folding at some point. If you can't find good bluffing spots, quit poker! JK, but you should be able to find good bluffing spots in all but the wildest games. And even in crazy wild games, the most optimal strategy is not to nit it up and setmine but to widen your value ranges because if these guys are playing VPIP 80%, KJ is pretty good when nobody's raised.

Just ask yourself--are the biggest winners at any level nits?

And even if we can construct some theoretical game with high enough rake and tough enough opponents that nitting it up is the best strategy, it's a pretty weak argument. If your goal is ever to move up, you're better off ignoring the rake and playing a strategy that won't get you crushed when you move up.

Last edited by Shai Hulud; 08-22-2017 at 06:30 PM.
Shai Hulud is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive