7- handed $500 effective - UTG Straddles to 6, folds to CO who raises to 15, Hero is on the button with Q8hh and raises it to 40.

CO is a young aggressive player and we both have been the two most active at the table.

CO calls, everyone else folds.

Flop Jh9h2o

CO checks and Hero bets 60. He pauses for a bit and raises to 180.

At this point I want to fold because he has a lot of two pair hands and better straight draws in his range but I think that might be too nitty for a 3bet/straddled pot against this type of villain.

Also I don’t want spew here when there are 3 soft spots at the table.

Should I just jam and feel half sick about it?

Before you get all the "fold pre" responses, I have to ask why you chose to 3! with Q8s? I grant raise > call, but you need to explain a little as to why 3 bet?

It will also help the responses.

He’s been opening light, so while I’m definitely 3betting light in this hand, I feel I have the best hand a good amount of the time and he has a similar strength hand a lot here too. Happy to consider fold pre comments but I think this is a pretty standard spot preflop given dynamics, if not I would love to hear what my range should be here and I’ll just make the adjustment.

I dont want to sound like a douchebag, but lol at thinking freaking Q8 is a standard 3 bet pre in a 1/3 game. Even on the button against a young lag that is just too wide, and your 3 bet frequenzy will be through the roof high if you start 3 betting semigarbage as Q8.

Also if you really are unsure of whether to stackoff or not when you hit this flop, it tells me that youre not ready to start 3 betting this light.

You get a top 5 percent flop for your hand with a combodraw in a straddled 3 bet pot between 2 wide ranges, my money would be into the middle here in a heartbeat.

Not only is the initial 3! bad, it is also too small.

As played, would call the xr and fold to a turn jam unimproved. I'm assuming villains doesn't fold flop. If villain is a bit wild or OP thinks there is a more fold equity, jam can be better than call.

Don’t level yourself into thinking Q8s is a good 3 bet candidate. There are much better hands, even in a wider range

Fold pre.

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What kind of range do you put the villain on when he raises?

How does Q8s fare against that range?

What % of his range will he fold to a 3bet?

Until you can answer those questions, you should be folding hands like Q8s to a raise pf.

Widening up your 3-bet range and including bluffs is fine but you can pick better hands. Your equity and playability isn't going to be that good vs. his calling range. You're not going to be happy about putting a lot of money in when you flop top pair, your straight is dominated by KQ and your flush is dominated by quite a few combos as well. Villain would need to be opening like 40-50% of hands before I consider 3-betting this.

It's too small if you're 3-betting polarized and have a cold-calling range. If you're playing 3-bet or fold it's probably fine.

Flop is a slam dunk shove IMO. Folding is very very bad when you have this much equity. You shouldn't be 3-betting villain light at all if you're only putting all the money in with nutted hands. Your marginal 3-bets are going to get put in tough spots a lot by an aggressive villain and you need to be willing to make some bluffs and catch bluffs.

I really don't see how you can try to justify preflop when you get a flop this good and want to fold to a x/r from an aggressive player.

Thanks all!!! Didn’t realize preflop was so bad and wide against this villain. Will tighten that up in the future. Should my range here be roughly be 88+ KQ+ and a $55 3bet?

I just fold preflop. If I'm going to get out-of-line, I need something just a little stronger than 3 gappers (which I hate).

I probably bet a little smaller on the flop.

My original response was going to be that now that we're here I don't see how we can not just shove and live with results. But Facing a check/raise given our preflop action and big flop sizing is a little gross. And on top of that, the parts of his range which he is semi-bluffing with often have us crushed (i.e. bigger flush draw + overs, and this goes back to preflop for me). Plus it is doubtful anyone is taking this line with weakish showdownable hands that could fold to a jam. And we rarely see a check/raise to check the turn OOP, so it's not as if we're going to realize our equity by just calling. So now I think I'm actually more on board with the give up plan (especially if we want to keep our stack to cover easier spots at the table), although that doesn't seem right either.

GcluelessNLnoobG

$45-$55 are all reasonable enough. I prefer $50.

You're going way too far in the other direction. A lot of the reason Q8s is bad is because 3-gappers suck. Q9s would be totally fine/standard to 3-bet BU vs. CO.

You're 3-betting range should be composed of a high density of Axs, mid pocket pairs+, suited broadways, K9s-T9s, the strong offsuit broadways and you can mix in some weaker suited connectors, 1-gappers and small pairs if you're comfortable with that.

If Villain is opening way too wide in CO, as OP says (give him 40-50% of hands?) then we can definitely 3bet wider than normal.

Whether Q8s is going to make the cut will depend on whether we are 3-betting a polarized range or a linear range. My understanding of poker theory is this (please correct me if I’m wrong):
If we are playing 3-bet or fold from BTN then we should 3-bet with a linear range of the strongest X% of hands. Definitely Q8s is not going to belong to a linear 3-bet range.
If we are going to have a flatting range on BTN then we should 3-bet with a polarized range of X% of hands comprised of the strongest hands (like TT+,AK,AQs,KQs) and then our weakest hands that are not +EV flats. For example, we want to flat with KJo because it’s a +EV hand against his wide opening range — let’s assume the blinds are passive so we don’t expect to get squeezed — but prefer to 3-bet or fold with KTo because it’s not a profitable flat.

Maybe some internet-based players can say, given a 40% CO opening range, how wide are we allowed to 3-bet on BTN? Is 16% of hands reasonable?
If Q8s is on the cusp of an unplayable hand as a flat, I don’t mind the 3-bet.

We need to be clear about what the specific assumptions are on the CO opening range before we all chime in with “fold pre”. 3bet might be okay given the circumstances.

Presumably Q9s is a +EV flat assuming blinds are passive, and given dynamic with CO he might 4bet wider than usual in response to our 3bet and we’d be forced to fold Q9s and not realize the equity of our hand (which sucks). Wouldn’t it make more sense to flat Q9s against a too-wide CO opening range in that scenario?

I’m kind of playing devils advocate against the “fold pre” crowd here, but I do actually believe that under certain reasonable assumptions (CO opening way too wide, passive blinds), Q8s is really on the cusp of unplayable hands as a flat, and therefore could be worked in as a 3-bet in a polar range.

Friendly amendment. It's also highly likely that when you can answer those questions, you should also still be folding pre.

Maybe this is out of date to current thinking, but Jonathan Little has K8s-J8s as 3bets in BTN vs CO, while K9s-J9s are flats. This is against a standard RFI range for CO.
See here: https://poker-coaching.s3.amazonaws....lop-charts.pdf

Edit: These charts assume an ante is in play, so presumably we need to tighten our ranges against a standard CO opening range with no antes. Then again, if CO is opening too wide, we should loosen our range yet again as a deviation.

With the straddle, our 3! range pre-flop still needs to be tighter than if it were BTN vs CO without straddle. There are 4 players to get through. We also want to know the stacks of players yet to act, as SPR postflop will not be very large.

A normal 3! range in this spot would probably be something like 77+, ats+, aq+, kqs.

Yeah like Petrucci has said, fold pre, don’t fold post. Even if his range is full of A hi flush draws and QT type hands, on top of top two and sets, that have you crushed, you still will have over 35%. And if he ever has raise folds or T8 or something, it’s a brainless jam


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@monikrazy: I missed that the UTG straddle was on in this hand, thought this was just a standard 5x open from the CO. That should tighten ranges a bit, moving Q8s to fold and probably shifting our 3bet bluffs to hands like KJo/Q9s/K9s, like browni said. I assume we use a polarized 3bet strategy, i.e. we have a flatting range here with hands like KJs/QJs/JTs etc.

Even if we pretend this is a CO vs. HJ spot that 3-betting range is tighter than normal/standard. If you aren't including any bluffs under the assumption that a 3-bet would get called too often, then you should move some hands from the top of your calling range into your 3-bet range for value.

Lol at the nutflushdraw is gonna raise/fold here in a 3 bet pot with these stacks. Come on,sweet jesus.

That is not the reason flop is a shove, to try and get bigger flushdraws to fold.



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Agree: I did a ninja delete edit after I noticed how short we are. Ace high flush draws are never folding of course.

I don't mind 3! a little wider if everyone at the table is $500+ and CO/straddle/blinds have fold buttons. We don't have info on all the players. Main villain sounds sticky/agressive which means we might want to err on the side of being tighter because we won't have enough fold-equity with our weaker hands.

Or as a default for these stakes/situation, its better to choose the more conservative/tight line with marginal holdings.

Once you start 3! wider you will also face more interesting questioms about what hands are good/profitable to call and even trap-reraise.