1/3 this is 300$ max bet because it's in Washington

So V2 in the SB (550) is a young asian guy and he has been playing pretty loose has been donking often and playing pretty aggresively with weird lines postflop. He also called me down earlier with third pair when I raised a flop donk and barreled turn and river.

V1 BB middle aged asian guy (300 eff)

other limpers not super relevant all around 300 and I cover everyone.
1 limp EP I make it 15 in the lowjack with red JJ. Cutoff, button, sb, bb and limper all call.

Preflop this was standard sizing at table. I guess I could size up but 15 was consistently getting 1-3 callers so I think I just got a little unlucky here. I prefer to not go too much larger than 5x preflop so I can continue to isolate a relatively wider range. I feel like the preflop raise sizing argument has been beaten to a dead horse so I skipped this decision point.

Flop 7h 5h 2d (90)
v2 checks V1 leads 25 limper folds Hero?

i'm not sure you understand the concept of effective stack sizes

The original post has been edited. I was using the term effective stack size improperly to point out that most of the rest of the players had similar to starting stack size aside from the big stack V2. I'm sorry I also didn't also memorize the exact stack sizes of every other player in the hand as well for you.

Now that we have had a nice discussion on the proper use of poker terminology would you like to actually contribute anything to the discussion of the hand?

I would go $20 pre.

On the flop I raise to $100 for vs mini lead.

Well I'm no pillar in this community but... It sounds like you have some preconceived notions that you don't want rattled.

First off you dismiss preflop bet sizing. You make the "standard" raise. Why are you playing like everyone else at the table?

A fellow poster points out an error and you get all delicate. Hard to have a conversation if we aren't all on the same page, speaking the same language.

Preflop raise to 20.
AP: Flop raise to 75

It's not like the point on effective stacks had any impact on our understanding of the conversation. You obviously understand the only relevant information which is what are all the stack sizes involved in the hand. I took exception to what came across as a snarky, condescending, and unhelpful waste of a post.

As for preflop raise sizing. I simply pointed out why I raised what I did and that I feel like the open raise sizing argument has been had in many posts before with posters way better than I am arguing for both sides of the issue. There are so many intangibles that come from a live game and I don't think there is a correct answer in a vacuum. It depends on your preflop strategy, the opponents at the table and so many other variables that it seems almost like a waste of energy to try to argue the point on the forum.

I believe 15 and 20 could both be viable sizes in this spot but you would need to have a tighter range for a 20 sizing. I want to be isoing more often and I rarely overlimp so I chose the 15$ sizing. However, I have seen posters much more experienced than I arguing both sides of this debate.

1. If 15 is consistently getting 1 to 3 callers, you should make it 18 because of the limper. I'd also size up with a premium hand if they're not paying attention. You really don't want 5 callers with JJ.

2. 100 otf to dissuade multiple callers. That way only combo draws are getting odds to call.

The difference in number of callers you'll end up getting here doing a $15 raise versus $20 is pretty much 0%. For real. 4 other players had a hand they want to play. $15 is a reasonable price to see a flop in a 1/3 NL game, as is $12, as is $20. The previous $15 raises narrowing the field only narrowed the field because fewer players had a hand they wanted to see a flop with; from the LJ with so many people still to react behind us it is difficult to know how many people want to see a flop. This fact actually makes preflop a little tricky if your goal is to narrow the field. If your goal is to narrow the field, you'd be better off overlimping to reraise (and in the LJ with still 5 people to react preflop this would be my preference). If you're fine going very multiway to the flop (which you may be) you might actually be better off raising much smaller and simply playing a higher / more manageable SPR pot. IMO.

I would just flat the donk. A donk in a bloated multiway pot has to be given some respect. We also still have 2 players behind us in position (plus the SB) to react; we can't just be piling in huge money just cuz draws, especially if we're not committed. The SPR is a very unmanageable ~3 against most (and even an unmanageable 6 against the deep guy), but lets do our best to manage it by not committing ourselves with a flop raise. Let's evaluate what everyone does and go from there. IMO.

GcluelessNLnoobG

So you think a raise to $18 isn't going to have the exact same preflop result here? I'm not attempting to be mean when I say this, but this thought is *mind boggling*. And what's even more mind boggling is that this seems to be the common thought in this forum. I have no idea why I seem to be so out-of-step with the forum regarding this when it should be clear as day to anyone who's played more than a couple hundred hours of LLSNL?

Regarding raising to $100, that'll create a HU pot against the donker of $290 with us just having $185 left against, clearly committing ourselves. Do we want to commit ourselves having gotten in just 5% of our stack preflop and offering 4 opponents 24+ IO preflop? I obviously hate the preflop result, but I'm not ready to commit yet, which is why I take the passive route and just call and see what shakes down.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Pretty loose and donking villain means sizing up preflop.

Now that it’s 5 way in a bloated pot. Min raise to 50$. Raising small sweeps for mines but also gives V2 a chance to isolate for you with a weaker hand in our eyes but more perceived strength to others that you can just fold if anyone else calls.

With JJ in a 6-way pot at LLSNL, you're set mining, whether you realize it or not.

With no set and no draw, why would we raise? Yes, we probably have the best hand, but any decent-sized raise pot-commits us with a medium pair, out of position (both absolute and relative), against up to half the table. Ugh.

Flatting >> shoving >> any other-sized raise IMO.

Making it 70 or so to not let everyone in cheap and for value. We are ahead of the donk range and ahead of what most people will call with here. No reason to freak out just because a lot of people make it in pre, we can still play good poker.

Also we have all been here, sometimes you get a bunch of calls unexpectedly. No reason to beat OP to death over the preflop size. In hindsight, larger would be better but these things happen in fishy games.

Because min raising in a 6 handed pot vs players than flat $15 pre gets useful information without being committed. We want the laggy Asian guy to do something crazy because we believe we are ahead of his range but we are unclear about the other callers which a min raise would define.

Shoving here gets hands than beat you to call while a min raise keeps enough in their range than even if they call we can still be ahead. Flatting may have the same result as preflop where you don’t even hint at strength and people start calling with any equity.

If we get shoved on we can still call ahead when they have a draw and think they have fold equity. The difference than just shoving is a draw will more likely do this now with you additional $50 rather than just calling your shove with a draw.

Also for the record I would not raise with a draw here as I would hate to have to fold. JJ is a hand that if someone that’s not laggy Asian does something suspicious I wouldn’t mind mucking.

So V2 in the SB (550) is a young asian guy and he has been playing pretty loose has been donking often and playing pretty aggresively with weird lines postflop. He also called me down earlier with third pair when I raised a flop donk and barreled turn and river.

V1 BB middle aged asian guy (300 eff)

Preflop: 1 limp EP I make it 15 in the lowjack with red JJ. Cutoff, button, sb, bb and limper all call

Flop 7 5 2 (90)
v2 checks V1 leads 25 limper folds I call V2 calls and everyone else folds

Turn 10 (165)
V2 donks for 100, V1 folds Hero?

I opted to call, looking back I don't like it. I think its scared money to not raise here we are way ahead of BB donking range and if we call we give any draw terrific odds. In game I was thinking be careful we are 6 ways and I thought I could call because I don't fear the hearts as much with the J of hearts. However, JJ with a heart is a lot different than AA or KK with the heart. The jack is just not going to be good for much value if the board runs out 4 hearts.

IMO a raise to 100 or so is good to try to get value from 7x from big blind and any draws from behind.

GG said it upthread, but just to reiterate: you realize 100 on the flop absolutely pot-commits you, right? You'll have $185 behind in a pot that'll be $290-315 with a caller, or $500 if someone comes back over the top for your stack. You're never folding.

And I just can't see how indiscriminately stacking off for 100BB with one pair in a 6-way raised pot is optimal. It might be +EV, maaaaaaybe ... but at any table where you can get into 6-way raised pots, no way is it optimal.

AP, you're now heads up and IP, and you've got a really good (and really under-repped) bluff catcher here. I don't mind calling described V2 down two streets here.

According to OP we're 550 effective at the start of the hand with the main villain.

V1 donked flop, but V2 donked turn?

I would have raised the flop against such a small sizing.

Just call turn and call most rivers/sizings against a button clicker.

correct V1 who we are 300 eff with donked flop and I called and V2 called. Then V2 who has 550, (I cover both) donked the turn for 100 and V1 folded

When he called down your 3 barrels with 3rd pair did he win? I would raise turn. If you won I would call to balance.

Would also feel more comfortable raising here if you raised flop to weed out potential two pair with the T now.

I was bluffing and he won

+1

V2 in the SB (550) is a young asian guy and he has been playing pretty loose has been donking often and playing pretty aggresively with weird lines postflop. He also called me down earlier with third pair when I raised a flop donk and barreled turn and river.

Preflop: 1 limp EP I make it 15 in the lowjack with red JJ. Cutoff, button, sb, bb and limper all call

Flop 7 5 2 (90)
v2 checks V1 leads 25 limper folds I call V2 calls and everyone else folds

Turn 10 (165)
V2 donks for 100, V1 folds hero calls

River A (365) V2 leads 100 hero?

Okay, people need to chill with the debate about preflop sizing. Anyway. I definitely raise this flop. Without doing that, we have basically no idea what this other guy has. As played, call the river. It's 100 more to win 465, you're against a guy who's capable of making weird plays, and the sizing doesn't make a ton of sense if he just spiked that ace after bluffing.

What worse hands do we expect to call a flop raise here?