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Old 08-16-2016, 11:15 AM   #1
Spammysr
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1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

This was actually my friend who played this hand, but it was so good, I had to put it here.

Hero/Friend: first time playing 1/3. Plays very TAG. Plays nitty, is 24 year old white kid. Bought in for about ~400. Playing fine just fine.

Villian 1: Lady Ive been playing with for hours plays VERY close to the vest, like most older ladies (probably ~50 years old).

Villian 2: is 22 years old, looks just like us, is a young TAG player. Splashes a bit more than my friend. He showed me KQ when he four bet me pre-flop right before we left for dinner break.

PREFLOP: Hero in BB, I straddle to 6. All folds to Villian1 (older lady) who limps for 6 in CO. Villian2 (younger kid) makes it $36 from the button, Hero (my friend) makes it $100 with AKo. (keep in mind I have no idea what anyone has this hand). Back to V1 who CALLS $94 more. V2 folds. Heads up to flop.

Flop: K33 rainbow. Hero bets out $60 V1 takes her time before raising to $160. Hero ????? Hero started flop w/ about ~$475, V1 started flop w/ about ~$525.

What to do here with AKo? What does she have?

Will post what Hero did and what she had after some guesses
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Old 08-16-2016, 12:33 PM   #2
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

she has the same hand or aces. There is no way she has a 3 in this spot.


I call and i'm not folding.
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Old 08-16-2016, 01:12 PM   #3
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
she has the same hand or aces. There is no way she has a 3 in this spot.


I call and i'm not folding.
Yes at this point, without knowing either hands, I thought Hero had AA and she had AK. Clearly, chatting w him after, he had AK.

I think this spot has to be a clear call, there's not much else you can do? But you can't be too happy.

And of course, physically impossible for either to have a 3. That goes w/o saying. (unless she did have one spoiler alert =
Spoiler:
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Old 08-16-2016, 11:47 PM   #4
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spammysr View Post
This was actually my friend who played this hand, but it was so good, I had to put it here.

Hero/Friend: first time playing 1/3. Plays very TAG. Plays nitty, is 24 year old white kid. Bought in for about ~400. Playing fine just fine.

Villian 1: Lady I’ve been playing with for hours plays VERY close to the vest, like most older ladies (probably ~50 years old).

Villian 2: is 22 years old, looks just like us, is a young TAG player. Splashes a bit more than my friend. He showed me KQ when he four bet me pre-flop right before we left for dinner break.

PREFLOP: Hero in BB, I straddle to 6. All folds to Villian1 (older lady) who limps for 6 in CO. Villian2 (younger kid) makes it $36 from the button, Hero (my friend) makes it $100 with AKo. (keep in mind I have no idea what anyone has this hand). Back to V1 who CALLS $94 more. V2 folds. Heads up to flop.

Flop: K33 rainbow. Hero bets out $60…… V1 takes her time before raising to $160. Hero ????? Hero started flop w/ about ~$475, V1 started flop w/ about ~$525.

What to do here with AKo? What does she have?

Will post what Hero did and what she had after some guesses
That was a 3bet preflop, not a 4bet.

Hero played the hand well as long as he folded to the raise. I need to see an old lady bet thin or bluff before I could ever believe it. Most old ladies aren't check/raising here with KQ or worse. Most old ladies are reluctant to put $100 in a pot preflop without a super premium even if they're playing their grandson. I must fold here. I suppose she could have AK. But I really don't want to play for stacks to find out.
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Old 08-17-2016, 01:22 AM   #5
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

A check seems better than a tiny b/f.
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Old 08-17-2016, 01:47 AM   #6
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Yuck. Most ppl (even old ladies?) don't play lock hands like this. Seriously doubt she limp-called 100 (esp. with the possibility of facing a back 4b) with 3x or 33, and even then, do those hands play like this?

It looks like AA or AK.

But if she's playing super tight as mentioned, it could be KK? It's just hard to imagine this is a bluff and there are zero semi bluffs except TPNK (which she doesn't have).

If we flat flop, we can never fold, and I hate the prospect of committing stacks vs someone that tight. She likely has AA, KK or AK, and I'm tempted to weight it toward AA. Our hand is massive but weak compared to the narrow extremely strong range she's repping. By far the worst part of this spot, and the one that potentially makes it so tough, is that the weak flop bet under reps our hand, so we could be getting bluffed.

I think I just absolutely hate life and tank-click the fold button.
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Old 08-17-2016, 02:53 AM   #7
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

We lose to 1 combo KK, 3 combos of AA. We chop with 6 combos of AK. We will likely have stacks in play by river so we are putting in $415 to chop $360. Can't imagine calling here unless we have good reason to believe she ever has KQ or spazzy QQ here.
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Old 08-17-2016, 03:31 PM   #8
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannabusto View Post
That was a 3bet preflop, not a 4bet.
Right, You know what I mean

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannabusto View Post
Hero played the hand well as long as he folded to the raise. I need to see an old lady bet thin or bluff before I could ever believe it. Most old ladies aren't check/raising here with KQ or worse. Most old ladies are reluctant to put $100 in a pot preflop without a super premium even if they're playing their grandson. I must fold here. I suppose she could have AK. But I really don't want to play for stacks to find out.
That is exactly what I was thinking.

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Originally Posted by wck117 View Post
A check seems better than a tiny b/f.
Don't necessarily agree at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilty_McDonkawhirl View Post
Yuck. Most ppl (even old ladies?) don't play lock hands like this. Seriously doubt she limp-called 100 (esp. with the possibility of facing a back 4b) with 3x or 33, and even then, do those hands play like this?

It looks like AA or AK.

But if she's playing super tight as mentioned, it could be KK? It's just hard to imagine this is a bluff and there are zero semi bluffs except TPNK (which she doesn't have).

If we flat flop, we can never fold, and I hate the prospect of committing stacks vs someone that tight. She likely has AA, KK or AK, and I'm tempted to weight it toward AA. Our hand is massive but weak compared to the narrow extremely strong range she's repping. By far the worst part of this spot, and the one that potentially makes it so tough, is that the weak flop bet under reps our hand, so we could be getting bluffed.

I think I just absolutely hate life and tank-click the fold button.
Yeah I thought it had to be AA or AK. Of course it can't be 3x. And never a bluff so it comes down to KK or AA or AK.

Only thing I don't agree with is - we could be getting bluffed, b/c I just don't think she has it in her to bluff, but she might call that cbet with 99-QQ where she might fold to a larger bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamitontheriver View Post
We lose to 1 combo KK, 3 combos of AA. We chop with 6 combos of AK. We will likely have stacks in play by river so we are putting in $415 to chop $360. Can't imagine calling here unless we have good reason to believe she ever has KQ or spazzy QQ here.
Agreed.

OKAY - So my nut-low friend ends up SHIPPING IT ALL IN !!!!!!

The older lady goes 'omg this always happen to me, I knew you had KK' and FLIPS OVER
Spoiler:


So on a scale of 0-100, how well did my friend play this hand

P.S. - I'm showing this thread to him.
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Old 08-17-2016, 03:37 PM   #9
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

This is a pained tank-fold when I'm on my a-game, and a desperate call when I'm off it.

We're risking stacks for a chop. We lose $154 if we fold now. We recoup that $154 and take in an extra $45 when we chop (half V2's $94 bet, minus rake). We lose an additional $415 when she has AA or KK.

Last edited by sierradave; 08-17-2016 at 03:38 PM. Reason: op posted results while I was typing. Removed an incorrect guess about what the outcome would be.
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Old 08-17-2016, 03:44 PM   #10
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

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Originally Posted by sierradave View Post
This is a pained tank-fold when I'm on my a-game, and a desperate call when I'm off it.
This is painfully accurate lmao!!! Fold when I'm up, call when I'm stuck lol
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:22 PM   #11
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

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Originally Posted by Spammysr View Post

So on a scale of 0-100, how well did my friend play this hand

P.S. - I'm showing this thread to him.
5/7 imo
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:04 PM   #12
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Quote:
Originally Posted by sierradave View Post
This is a pained tank-fold when I'm on my a-game, and a desperate call when I'm off it.

We're risking stacks for a chop. We lose $154 if we fold now. We recoup that $154 and take in an extra $45 when we chop (half V2's $94 bet, minus rake). We lose an additional $415 when she has AA or KK.
There really is nothing to add, this says it all.
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:14 PM   #13
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

would she really raise KK on this board? And would she just call aces pre and play them like this? If she is good enough to smooth aces pre flop - she is probably only calling them on this board.
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:24 PM   #14
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
would she really raise KK on this board? And would she just call aces pre and play them like this? If she is good enough to smooth aces pre flop - she is probably only calling them on this board.
Old people like to see flops. They think that's how the game is supposed to work. Pre-flop there are only two kinds of hand. Worth seeing a flop, and not worth seeing a flop. Then once the flop hits, they take the time to evaluate how strong their hand is based on flop texture, to whatever extent they evaluate flop texture.

She was not being clever. She probably never likes to commit all her chips pre-flop even with AA.
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Old 08-17-2016, 05:38 PM   #15
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

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Originally Posted by Tilty_McDonkawhirl View Post
She likely has AA, KK or AK, and I'm tempted to weight it toward AA.
Appropriate time to say I told you so? Or was my conviction about AA not strong enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spammysr View Post
So my nut-low friend
You mean nut-worst. Nut low is good for half the pot. Although in this particular hand he had a scooper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat the Gambler View Post
Old people like to see flops. They think that's how the game is supposed to work. Pre-flop there are only two kinds of hand. Worth seeing a flop, and not worth seeing a flop. Then once the flop hits, they take the time to evaluate how strong their hand is based on flop texture, to whatever extent they evaluate flop texture.

She was not being clever. She probably never likes to commit all her chips pre-flop even with AA.
This reigns true af imo.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:54 AM   #16
Spammysr
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

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Originally Posted by Tilty_McDonkawhirl View Post
Appropriate time to say I told you so? Or was my conviction about AA not strong enough?


You mean nut-worst. Nut low is good for half the pot. Although in this particular hand he had a scooper


This reigns true af imo.
LOL. Good read, you were right! Someone had to have AA that hand, I was just hoping it was my 'nut-worst' friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
would she really raise KK on this board? And would she just call aces pre and play them like this? If she is good enough to smooth aces pre flop - she is probably only calling them on this board.
Don't think too much into it. She's not an uber genius. She was a 50 year old lady playing with her husband by her side complaining she had kids to send to college, to make my friend play more passively, even though she had AA. Either super duper genius, or just scared old lady, as many people have mentioned previously in this thread.
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:00 PM   #17
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Nobody know what she's got. I suspect her for AK or QQ/AA. I move all-in and hope she's gonna fold her AK. She may have AA but we have a blocker to that.
There's no chance I fold this one. So, I may as well hope she fold to super aggression.
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Old 08-19-2016, 02:51 PM   #18
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

If he ranged her, what did he range her for? It doesn't sound like he did really. If she's as tight as you say the preflop call means QQ-AA, AK with AA somewhat discounted.

When she raises flop you can pretty much narrow it down to 3 combos of aces (2 if discounting), 1 KK, and 6 of AK.

If your friend had actually been using his brain he'd realize that a Cbet accomplished absolutely nothing against that range. So, checking to at least try to keep QQ around is best.

His bet sizing was fine assuming she never ever bluffs because of it, but he shouldn't have bet at all.

3betting the flop was atrocious and he should be too embarrassed to continue on.



The worst part is that the results were provided. Shame.
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Old 08-19-2016, 03:08 PM   #19
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spammysr View Post

So on a scale of 0-100, how well did my friend play this hand
the flop bet/shove is a 0/100.

the cold 3b preflop was good though.

Overall I would give him a score of 7 out of 100. well-played!
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Old 08-19-2016, 05:23 PM   #20
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spammysr View Post
LOL. Good read, you were right! Someone had to have AA that hand, I was just hoping it was my 'nut-worst' friend



Don't think too much into it. She's not an uber genius. She was a 50 year old lady playing with her husband by her side complaining she had kids to send to college, to make my friend play more passively, even though she had AA. Either super duper genius, or just scared old lady, as many people have mentioned previously in this thread.
well you left out the part about complaining about money and playing with hero husband. It would be much easier to range her if we had this information. I would generally never fold AK in this spot, but have made hero folds vs these types of players in the past. As far as scared money goes - she is most likely not raising here with AK as she could feel hero could have AA or KK so that leaves literally only 2 hands she could have. AA and KK, and she probably isn't raising with KK.
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Old 08-19-2016, 06:37 PM   #21
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

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Originally Posted by djevans View Post
well you left out the part about complaining about money and playing with hero husband. It would be much easier to range her if we had this information. I would generally never fold AK in this spot, but have made hero folds vs these types of players in the past. As far as scared money goes - she is most likely not raising here with AK as she could feel hero could have AA or KK so that leaves literally only 2 hands she could have. AA and KK, and she probably isn't raising with KK.
Well she only said the college part before the flop came out bc clearly the pot was much bigger than ur standard pre flop hand.

But her hubby was there the whole time. So yeah there's no way shes going 4th level, bluffing to look super strong. Her range is polarized to AA KK or AK and I believe that's about it.
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Old 08-20-2016, 12:54 AM   #22
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

I think we can discount a lot of AK due to many old ladies folding that preflop for $100. I think she would be much more likely to call with QQ hoping you have AK or an overplayed JJ. With AK, Not only is she scared of whiffing the flop, she can also convince herself that you have a monster hand like KK or AA.

Her flop raising range is AA or KK only. Maybe 1 combo of AK if she was tilited or something. Flop is a very, very easy fold.

I think the flop c-bet is fine because we get old lady to define her range for cheap. If we check and she fires $100, it becomes harder for us to know where we are at. She likely wouldn't do it with QQ, or even AK, but we can't be positive because old ladies pretty much never play 3-bet pots. We don't know if she has a spazz button or not. If we check and call the flop bet then we are committed which is bad for us against her range. Basically, if we check the flop, we are check folding which is super super weak.

Much better to b/f for 50 or 60 bucks in order to protect our hand from getting stolen from us in case we are up against QQ or a less likely AK that will likely call our flop bet, but then check it down on the turn and river.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 08-20-2016 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 08-20-2016, 07:52 AM   #23
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

As said, this Flop was played very poorly.
Minor nit point to add:
If this was indeed the biggest pot of his life, it sounds like 1-3 is too high for him.
There's no shame in sticking at 1-2 until you win and lose your fair share of $1K+ pots.
Not to mention, a seemingly lack of thought process would allow him to lose money more slowly at 1-2.
Not trying to be a @#$%, just offering up honest (and blunt) advice.
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Old 08-20-2016, 10:02 AM   #24
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Havent looked at spoiler or read any posts-- in future try to avoid posting spoiler so early on- results change conversation which limits how much we can all learn from the situations. .

This seems like such a clear fold to me.

We dont beat anything that is playing hand for value-- and best case seems to be a chop.
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Old 08-20-2016, 10:05 AM   #25
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Re: 1/3 Parx AKo Cold 4-bet, Facing Raise of cbet on Flop of K33

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
she has the same hand or aces. There is no way she has a 3 in this spot.


I call and i'm not folding.
So you assign her a range that we either chop with or lose to-- but youre not folding... Am I missing something?
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