Stopped reading after all the complete pres. Bunch of awful nit nerds making up reasons to avoid putting chips in the pot.

Solid thought process. Way to be open minded.

AP now, the river is definitely a check. I am all for really thin value here but I just don't see how we are good often enough vs 3 players to bet. IF I bet here, it would be 100% as a b/f. But we have decent showdown value so I think checking is best and then deciding what to do based on action behind.

Limp. Suited weakish aces play so great in limped pots. They can hit flush over flush, trips over trips, 2 pair over 2 pair. Once you raise to iso, next thing you know you gotta play TPMK OOP. And the fish totally limp in AJ AQ even AK so an ace is not good enough to be able to shovel money in. At 1/2, I raise with an extremely tight range from SB/BB, something like 77+ AK.

Bet flop, check/fold turn.

I don't get to the river and now even one of the only draws (OESD 53) completed. I'm done with the hand again, and again check/fold.

TP eleventeen ways, for the most part, is a piece of dog crap and should be played that way. Will we fold the best hand on early streets in a meaningless small pot some of the time? Yup. Do we care? Nope.

GimoG

Interesting turn action since I expect these guys to turn their hand faceup and raise trips a lot of the time. This makes the river closer than the turn and I might not hate c/f, c/c, or b/f.

Who is the overcaller on the turn? Even for a 1/3 reg, overcalling the turn with JT is pretty gross. If he's even a bit competent he should either have 75 or a hand that beats you, and we will want to c/f. If he's one of the weakest spots at the table, maybe lean toward c/c or b/f.

I like money. Don't see how putting in $500 to blow someone off trips is ever a good idea at 1/3.

If that's the case shouldn't we be bet/folding?

If you don't like money, it's a great idea.

I think it's a clear x/c or x/f.

No. Just because you are good does not mean you will get called by worse. In a spot like this I'm happy to check and see if someone tries to bluff me with a busted straight draw like 87 or 75. In certain games I play, checking also allows someone who might have me beat to make a mistake by checking back or betting small and saving me money. And if we check and see a bet and raise behind us, we can easily fold not having lost a river bet.

How often is someone bluffing in a lol4way river spot? How often is TP betting lol4ways on the river with trips on board?

Also don't agree that if we're ahead on the turn we're ahead now because one of the lone best draws (OESD 53) got there.

GfoldseasilyG

It will also be the best hand OTR reasonably often. Can't believe how many people think top top is worthless here. Villains have more TX than 6x. And they're more likely to call flop with TX. We haven't been raised. Maybe 53 got there but stations can have all kinds of nonsense.

Maybe I'm playing in a different game; is everyone seeing a lotta 4ways-to-the-river spots on fairly drawless boards?

GpossiblyouttolunchG

To take a totally different perspective: anyone who is speculative hand mining is drooling over the fact that hero is still in the hand and can't release TPTK in eleventeen way limped pots that are still headed to the river 4ways.

Gno?G

I'm not saying I expect to be good a lot. My point with that post was that even when we do think we are good, we still shouldn't necessarily bet. Checking is clearly better than betting here, and OP was trying to argue that we should always bet the river when we think we are good, which is fallacious.

I also agree that we are never value cutting here. And sometimes, depending on the exact action, we might want to check/fold after all. But I have absolutely been in games where people will bet the river with busted draws because they think, correctly, that a bet looks very scary and people will make big laydowns.

I misread the action and thought it was only 3 ways to the river, obv 4 way I lean even heavier toward c/f

You want to "release" TPTK before there's even any indication we are beaten. Simply getting called by stationy players is not an indication we are beaten. Not enough to just take the attitude "eff it I'm done with the hand."

The fact we were not raised OTT leans villains towards TX 99 88 77 and draws. Yeah somebody could have 6x but given no raise and more TX being present in limping ranges I expect there's 2 to 3 times as much TX. The only draw that got there is also the least likely draw for anyone to have (53).

Why do you say this is a drawless board? On T64 I expect stations are calling us OTF and OTT with 98 97 87 85 75. Plus all the made hands TX 77 88 99 and 6x at some frequency though I expect some players to fold 6x OTF and others to raise OTT so we don't need to give them all 6x combos or even close.

We could easily be good here. But that doesn't mean we should bet necessarily. We would need hands that call us to be losing more than half the time. I think it's close here. I don't expect KT QT JT T9 etc. to fold to a reasonably sized bet. But if we have loose passive villains they can have 6x and 53 sometimes. Whether I bet/fold here x/c or x/f depends on who has called me down and whether they seem to be drawing. Often they will leak this information through timing tells. Rapidly calling the turn bet makes 6x less likely compared to a call after 10s for instance.

If I have some LAGGY opponents I might x/c. If they are nitty I x/f. If they are straightforward I bet/fold like 1/3 PSB.

Bet/fold>X/F>X/C

Pretty clear bet/fold at this point in a face up and loose passive lineup. Bet out $60 and fold to a raise. I don’t think most players are folding any T for this price, and there should be more Tx than 6x.

I think check call is actually the worst option here. There aren’t that many natural bluffs and worse Tx will just check. We end up paying off 6x and missing value when we are ahead.

If this is the type of game where half the lineup is capable of taking T9 and turning it into a bluff and aren’t just spewy generally then I’m table changing.

All I'm saying is this: from the perspective of someone who attempts to get into pots for very cheap in position with speculative hands (which is what I do), I consider tables where people are taking TP very multiway to the river in multiway limped pots (and even considering betting it themselves) gravy trains. Right?

GgravytrainaficianadoG

Call You aren’t the average villain though, you are a winning player and you play tight. You don’t have a ton of Tx here like T8o that we would be trying to get value from so if we were in the hand against someone with your image we could check AT here. If OP wrote he was in a nitty game against seemingly winning players it would be a different scenario.

Keep in mind though, you can get in there for cheap with speculative hands, but on this board how often are you really going to have a monster and even if you did, I’m advising bet/folding 20 BB’s on the river, I’m not going broke here even if you did hit one.

Next action / results please.

I have a feeling Vs are just button clicking and someone will pay hero off with QT/JT or something after a 1/2 river value bet.

After reading comments I agree with a b/f river, followed closely by x/f.

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Turn I x/f and x/r a small % of the time (table dependent). We block combos of A6. x/c is the worst

OTT: x/f and x/r >> b/f >> x/c

River I'm close between b/f and x/f

I suppose, though IMO we have not overplayed our hand at all. A gravy train table is more where people are getting it in multiway with TP especially non nut TPs. Regardless we have no indication anyone who's called is half as nitty as you. I also expect you would raise a set/boat at some point (if not that's pretty bad but w/e). We've seen no raises. Just getting called by loose players who can have a ton of worse TX PPs and busted draws. I think we are good often enough to bet/fold here but as I said before depends on exact lineup. If last to act is very bluffy I might elect to x/c for instance.

A bit of a unique situation. I don't remember all the villains involved in the hand, their stack sizes and their tendencies. I do remember that the BB and BTN are stationy and that almost everyone is deep. Assume that there are no other reads and that everyone has a $500 stack except for the limper in MP who has $200.

Also, if it matters hero is a late 20s Asian with a TAG image.

Four limpers. Hero looks down at AT in the SB. Hero completes. BB checks and we go six ways to a flop...

Flop: T64 ($17)

Hero bets $12. Both stations, the short stack and one other limper call. That's right four callers. Five ways to the turn...

Turn: 6 ($73)

Hero bets $35. Both stations and the short stack call. Four ways to the river...

River: 2 ($178)

Hero bets $55. BB calls. Short stack shoves. BTN shrugs and calls. Hero folds. BB calls.

Short stack had QQ. BTN had 53. BB had...T6 and just called even when given a second chance to raise. Interesting. So apparently I was trying to get some thin value with the worst hand.

What does the math say on the likelihood that TPTK is still the best hand by the river 4-way?

Also in this thread: the NUT worst way to play QQ with a short stack.

This whole hand is why poker is alive and well.

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