Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-16-2019, 12:06 AM   #1
TJ Eckleburg12
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TJ Eckleburg12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 12,770
1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

Villain is a middle-aged white guy, been playing pretty tight. I can only recall two hands he's shown down, AA played kinda slow, and a hopeless raise pre, bet/check/bet bluff with 32s on a AQT flop.

Related, the previous hand to this, I bet/bet/bet large a flopped pair which backdoored into a straight, and he call/call/called with a flopped set of 7's, so he's definitely on the passive side, and he might be tilted.

I have about 900, Villain has about 1700.

1/3, button straddles for $6. I hold K K UTG, and raise to $25. Villain calls, 3 other calls.

Pot $130, flop T 6 5

I lead $75, Villain calls, all others fold.

Pot $280, turn T 6 5 9

I'm confused with what to do here. Is checking better for pot control? Should I try to charge draws? Can I bet for value against a passive-ish player? If I do bet, it's completely standard to fold to even a min-raise, right?

Anyway, I bet $150. Villain thinks a moment and calls.

Pot $580, River T 6 5 9 Q

I... check? ...Intending to call? Is bet/fold to ship better?

Anyway, I checked, and Villain cuts out $275 and bets.

Comments on all streets appreciated.
TJ Eckleburg12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 12:53 AM   #2
johnnyBuz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnnyBuz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Beast Coast
Posts: 7,040
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

I would start with a flop check with my entire range. The best hand you’ll ever have here is TT and you’ll be pretty easy to play against when you come out betting T65r flops 5-way.

Assuming you are acting first post flop, you can flip your worst absolute position into the nut relative position by checking and seeing what develops. Every now and then you can sneak in a c-bet with a hand like QJ because occasionally it will get through, and more occasionally still you will turn some (or lots of) equity like this turn would have.

As played I would x/f the river. You only beat a bluff and it’s pretty tough for villain to have a bluff on this board calling the c-bet with three players still to act behind him. If he’s turning ATs into a bluff god bless him. Size looks like pure value to get a crying call from AA/KK.
johnnyBuz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 01:18 AM   #3
MogFish
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 172
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

Iím ok with a protectiony bet on the flop into the field. Once you get called OtF you need to evaluate what is continuing to a second barrel that you beat. The most obvious draw comes in on the turn and the turn card really doesnít help your range at all. I like a bet flop, check call turn, check evaluate river line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MogFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 02:43 AM   #4
zica
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 931
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

Seems like way ahead or way behind(should be ahead way more often) and he's passive(not so passive he'll check tp behind on turn) so no value from bluffs so I would bet light, 100 on turn, 150 on river, folding to raises.

If you want to check-call turn that's okay as long as you check fold river as he's not likely betting twice with worse imo, maybe just JJ or QQ.

Tbh, I don't understand giving 4 opp's a free card on a built pot on flop. Someone will bet a T or worse from late position a fair bit and/or prob put us on TT or AK/AQ and I like that but doubt it's worth possibly giving a free card to so many. When I've already got so much value for my hand from having 4 pf callers I don't mind being a bit transparent and generally, people don't think I'm easy to play against.

Last edited by zica; 05-16-2019 at 03:05 AM.
zica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 11:18 AM   #5
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,997
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

I'm not a fan of our preflop result (especially if there are smaller stacks in the mix where commitment issues will arise on the flop) so I typically do something else. Even if all the stacks are huge like ours the SPR is still less than 7, which is kinda a horrendous result 5ways and OOP, and even more horrendous if we don't have a wide raising range UTG (where our hand begins to be more face up postflop), imo. But, if this is a fistpump result for you, then that's your wheelhouse and I'm sure you'll do fine.

We raised preflop UTG and then cbet 5ways OOP to the world on drawless flop. What's our range for doing this? My guess is that it is a pretty face up range. Which puts us in a horrendous spot postflop unless we're up against total morans. I think there's an argument for checking this flop and underrepping, although obviously giving a free card to Ax might not be great. Board is bone dry, I probably bet a lot less if betting (attempting some semblance of pot control OOP). When called, we're pretty much flying blind at this point and any completely non-moranic opponent should know exactly where he is in the hand plus has position to boot.

About the only draw got there on the turn (87). The pot control train pretty much left the station due to preflop / flop, as if we check just a 75% PSB by him will put stacks trivially in play by the river. There's no reason for him to expose his hand and raise (which would allow us to get away), and besides his history with the set of 77s hand shows he won't do us that favour anyways. I would mostly check/evaluate.

By the river with an overcard coming it's even less likely we get paid off by Tx (plus some Tx and some other ambitious hands got there). Kinda don't like any of our options. If he's not raise bluffy I guess we could consider a small blocking bet.

This whole hand goes back to preflop for me. We got in just < 3% of our stack preflop for a mere 8bb, and yet postflop are being asked to play for hugenormous 55% of it (166bb!), all OOP multiway with only one pear that is probably face up on the table (which is what we were going to end up with the vast majority of the time). If you're totally cool in these spots then that'll be more fine, but that is questionable since I don't believe anyone is totally pumped about your bet/bet line on the flop/turn.

Gputyourselfingoodspots,imoG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 05-16-2019 at 11:24 AM.
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 12:24 PM   #6
Spanishmoon
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Northeast
Posts: 1,044
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

If I cannot thin the herd of callers preflop, I’m checking this flop. HU or even 3-way, I’m betting. If the V in position bets after xxx I might x r if he’s a Lag.

On turn AP, I prefer to x. I’m looking to get to a cheap showdown with my OP. I hate turning my KK into a bluff catcher. But the board favors the V.

On river, I think KK is at the lower end of our minimum defense range. V can easily have JJ or AcQc, ATs. H shows no aggression on river. V may think his 88/JJ or Tp is good.

At 2-1 I can cry call. Not loving it. V has already slow played AA, so why can’t he have JJ?
I cannot imagine what he called flop with. He’s raising turn with 2 pair or straight here.
Spanishmoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 09:29 AM   #7
TJ Eckleburg12
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TJ Eckleburg12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 12,770
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

I hadn't even considered checking flop... I can definitely see some advantages to it.

I always roll my eyes when live players do this, but I'm thinking limp/reraise preflop might have done a better job of narrowing the field than just opening and let come what may
TJ Eckleburg12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 09:29 AM   #8
TJ Eckleburg12
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TJ Eckleburg12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 12,770
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

Anyway, I called, he had 8h7h, and I came away thinking this hand was a setup the whole way and wondering what I could have done differently
TJ Eckleburg12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 10:46 AM   #9
johnnyBuz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnnyBuz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Beast Coast
Posts: 7,040
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

This wasn’t a setup hand. You overplayed your hand and put 175 BB’s in the middle with a face-up/capped range that favors a field of callers.
johnnyBuz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 11:06 AM   #10
TJ Eckleburg12
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TJ Eckleburg12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 12,770
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

Harsh but fair

here to learn
TJ Eckleburg12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 11:07 AM   #11
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,997
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
This wasnít a setup hand. You overplayed your hand and put 175 BBís in the middle with a face-up/capped range that favors a field of callers.
+1

GcluelessNLnoobG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 11:57 AM   #12
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 8,087
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Eckleburg12 View Post
Villain is a middle-aged white guy, been playing pretty tight. I can only recall two hands he's shown down, AA played kinda slow, and a hopeless raise pre, bet/check/bet bluff with 32s on a AQT flop.

Related, the previous hand to this, I bet/bet/bet large a flopped pair which backdoored into a straight, and he call/call/called with a flopped set of 7's, so he's definitely on the passive side, and he might be tilted.

I have about 900, Villain has about 1700.

1/3, button straddles for $6. I hold K K UTG, and raise to $25. Villain calls, 3 other calls.

Pot $130, flop T 6 5

I lead $75, Villain calls, all others fold.

Pot $280, turn T 6 5 9

I'm confused with what to do here. Is checking better for pot control? Should I try to charge draws? Can I bet for value against a passive-ish player? If I do bet, it's completely standard to fold to even a min-raise, right?

Anyway, I bet $150. Villain thinks a moment and calls.

Pot $580, River T 6 5 9 Q

I... check? ...Intending to call? Is bet/fold to ship better?

Anyway, I checked, and Villain cuts out $275 and bets.

Comments on all streets appreciated.
With a button straddle on at these stakes I'd probably size up a bit to 30.

I agree with the previous posters, too many callers in here preflop. Let's check and see what develops.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 01:35 PM   #13
mdelore
old hand
 
mdelore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,315
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

johnny killing it in this thread lol
mdelore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 04:25 PM   #14
Amanaplan
acanalpanamA
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Getting There
Posts: 4,650
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

Checking flop is good, but in a softer game you can also bet something, even silly small, and gather your info for the remainder of the hand (not the only reason I'm betting but getting visibility on flops from face-up passive opponents is good). Once this V calls, you bet small again and bet even smaller if you want on all 3 streets because you are just rarely getting worse for value raised/bluffed ever on boards like this.

AP you have to recognize that you just got a big bet called multiway otf and a one hundred and fifty dollar bet called ott when HU... now he's betting two hundred and seventy five dollars on the river?? I write out the sizes because when a passive guy starts calling/making big bets, he's got it. That 32 bluff line was prob on the smaller size im sure. You say the number out-loud, think about how often you're stone dead, and you can fold.
Amanaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 08:24 PM   #15
zica
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 931
Re: 1/3, Overpair, deep stacks, OOP, what could possibly go wrong?

If we check flop and there is just one bet in lp(and we go h2h), I guess we're calling and checking turn. I would be worried that my opponent will keep betting all better and none worse(not really, he may keep betting JJ/QQ putting us on a float) so I guess we can check fold turn [pretty]safely but we give up a free card when we are ahead(of the rest of his range). If he checks behind turn, are we checking again on river and calling in the hope that he is making a desperation bluff or donk ourselves hoping that he thinks we're bluffing and will call down light(I like this more)?

In this hand, turn completed one draw but it also made some other draws possible. If flop checks thru and we donk on this turn, isn't folding to a raise more difficult because there are more draws? We might look like the nut flush draw but if an opponent has that hand(or pair plus flush draw), can't he raise it now with good success?
zica is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive