1/3 at my normal game

Hero: 30s, white, loose aggro image (but actually not that loose) high PFR%, likes to steal lots of pots in position. Generally known as a winning player at this game infested with fit or fold regs. Stack 150$ bought in only 200$ today. Doubled up early then lost two hands with bottom sets when short stack fish draws got there.

V: 50s white reg, very tight, 3! often with high PP, gets angry at the dealers when he's losing. Not a great player. Seen him lose more often than not. Stack 180$

Hero: QJdd on button

3 limpers to hero who opens for 12$. 4 callers. Pot ~60$

Flop 6hKd10d

V: in SB donk shoves the flop all else fold.

Hero?

We are likely behind Vs shove range, but pretty sure he has no diamond draw, AK, KQ, KT, KJ, are very realistic, TT possible but I'd usually see a 3! From him PF with TT+

I'd wait for a spot where you can have your wife in the pot, too, with a value hand.

Then you two can chop up his money later at home.

GL.

Rack up if you don't know what to do. Seriously.

Alright, it is a stupid question. Stupid results oriented thinking. Lock it down.

Folding a royal flush draw on the flop always seems like a good idea.

Posters above have provided the obvious, however the pre-flop raise is abysmally small. $12 should be an open raise (or after 1 limper). Not after 3-4 people have limped in. Should bump this to $20 preflop.

Make it $18 pre-flop. Re-ship OTF.

OESFD has an equity edge on just about every hand. Always feel good about gii with this monster flop.

We are a bit of a dog against a set with an OESFD.

However with pot odds, and the fact that his range is a lol autocall.

This is never a fold for stack sizes and given action/hand.

If we're a winning player in this game then I have no idea why we are buying in short and letting our stack dwindle to anything less than the maximum BI.

Preflop is a really easy overlimp for me. There is no way we are going to thin a field of 3 limpers with an aggro image plus for a lol $12. All this does is bloat the pot and we'll be in hellish spots when we flop TP due to small SPR.

I'd call the shove. We're fairly short so the dead money makes up a decent overlay. I haven't stoved it, but with our monster draw we're actually ahead of TP hands, I'm guessing we might even be ahead of two pair, and I'm guessing we're behind sets but probably not doing horrible (and probably doing fine with the dead money overlay). Plus gives us a gambooley image (if we're looking to improve our image). Plus really great implied tilt odds against this guy.

GcluelessstovenoobG

Limping preflop is tremendously bad when people are calling with 97o/J8/A4.

We have absolute position and we have the control of the betting.

What are we doing on TP flops (which is going to be the most likely result)? The SPR is < 2.5, so I doubt we're ever going to be able to fold, and yet we just gave 4 opponents a cheap price to ~nutmine against us, not to mention the fact there's a crapload of TP hands that dominate us.

If we're going to raise and get it HU, ok, that's one thing. We had zero chance of doing that here thanks to the amount of limpers, our image, and our raise size.

Graisingisprettybad,especiallythisshort,imoG

What are we doing when we flop top pair 4 ways with the pot size being 60 and our stack is 170? Running around the table doing cartwheels.

Also, this is 1/3. People are going to check/call down with worse top pairs and/or middle pairs. They aren't making plays on us.

I am unsure why you don't want money in the pot against hands we dominate.

I think you overestimating how good TPmehK is going to in 5 way pot. On TP flops, our meh kicker is behind a boatload of better kickers as well as kickers that got paired. Not to mention the times we're behind better hands such as sets / etc. Not to mention our preflop raise can easily weed out hand with worse kickers.

And having control of the betting in a 5way pot is almost worthless.

GimoG

Gobbledy said exactly what I was going to. I'll just +1 his sentiment on every post he's made in here.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using 2+2 Forums

Basically for me it boils down to this. Yes, we have an thin equity advantage preflop (which is why I would always raise this hand in Limit, and it ain't close). However, NL is all about implied odds. We can pass on our extremely thin preflop edges and simply wait for huge postflop edges.

Gthisisoneofthosespots,imoG

So raise the pot to an amount that will limit the # of callers and thus limit your chances of being behind. How many limp-call ranges are really going to be ahead of QJ when a Q or J flops? Maybe the occasional KQ or KJ but I think that is a smaller % of the time and if the limper is betting into you on the flop and turn, well then you can reevaluate.

How can we re-evaluate in an SPR 2.5 pot? We're planning on sticking in half our stack and then folding?

I meant in general, raising hands like QJs as opposed to overlimping.

I wouldn't have nearly as much a problem with the hand if our preflop raise had a good chance at narrowing the field to HU.

Serious question. Have you never done this? Have you never done this for thin-value and/or as a bluff? If not, I think you're not getting full value on your hands.

Would you have a problem if the raise size was with JJ+? AJ+? ATs+? KQo?

If not, why? If so, why?

JdQd should be in your pf button isolating range. Limps are dead money, pure profit just sitting out there waiting for someone to sweep them up.

I would flat if there was a raise and a few callers. Otherwise I am raising to 18, and playing poker post flop. I mean we can't be affraid of getting 4 callers. If we did, with this hand thats even better! (it makes cbetting (or not cebetting) a lot easier)

we're pretty much flipping (plus or minus ~7%) calling the donk shove for our stack.

against AK we're 52%; KK we're 42%; 66 we're 42%; K6 we're 48%; 610 we're 51%; NFD we're 41%; a weirdly played AA we're 46%; K10 we're 51%; Kx we're 56%

remember we have no fold equity or implied odds so the pot odds are all we have to work with

Sticking in half our stack with TP hands and then folding is pretty horrible, imo. We'll have to agree to disagree on this if you think otherwise.

I'm not exactly sure where my cutoff would be. But with a shortish 50bb stack after 3 limpers, I'd be raising big (i.e. $20ish) with TT+ / AQ+ so that (a) I can most likely narrow the field and (b) simply stackoff postflop with TP. These range of hands simply dominate a much wider range (including "biggish" hands that could still call), plus we get in a huge percentage of our stack preflop which doesn't allow ~nutminers to call profitably (especially since we'll have to stack off on all "safe" flops). I think borderline hands such as AJo/KQo/ATs are right on the borderline and I don't think I would argue strongly either way. I believe HOC argues for pretty much the same raising range (i.e. this ain't an unprecedented range).

We're basically playing fairly shortstacked poker and QJs just ain't the monster we think it is. But is has awesome implied odds in a multiway limped pot. Seeing a multiway flop cheap here getting implied odds of 50x is awesome.

Again, if we hadda raised and got it HU where we could do a cbet and take it, I wouldn't have quite as much problem with it. But a $12 raise after 3 limpers had no chance of ever doing that. And even then, a bigger raise would have created a HU pot with an SPR of < 4, which would make getting away from TP quite difficult.

GimoG